We're asking for an investigation into the Bury CVA

[silent majority]

At the heart of all the troubles this last few weeks has been this CVA. We're asking for it's investigation;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/28/bury-mp-fans-fsa-cva-football-regulation

[murham]

Total waste of time and money
We need people who will act on the rules of the game, not wasting time talking about it for endless years

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Too right Martin. I hope they listen and regulate to guard against the risk of fraudulent activity. We've seen previous cases of bills being paid to bogus companies as consultancy fees etc. It's probably rife throughout football.

[albie]

Absolutely right it should be investigated.
Then what should happen?

Piece about Bury from 200%;
http://twohundredpercent.net/buried/

[silent majority]

Total waste of time and money
We need people who will act on the rules of the game, not wasting time talking about it for endless years

I have no idea what that means.

[Colemans Left Hook]

I have been reading how "allegedly" the "debt" had been sold for "a penny in the pound " "7 million for 70 grand".

and it made me think of the time i used the phrase "vulture fund" on this site
can anyone "spot "any "alleged" "similarities" ?
would anyone ever use such an "attention seeking phrase"  as a "vulture company"
of course not

"vultures" don't "bury" their head in the sand. allegedly "others" "did"
----------------------------------------
 Legislation passed in 2010 removed the ability of vulture funds to use UK courts to enforce contested debts.[28] that is Only for countries like Liberia etc  with massive debts.
we need it for football clubs as well

The club’s Sisu-appointed chief executive, Tim Fisher, famously told supporters in 2013 that “Sisu is a distressed debt fund and therefore batters people in court”

that paragraph "sounds" "along the lines"of a "vulture fund" and i'm not taking the pi$$


think the Coventry fans want to get using this" phrase" ASAP as it's got a lot of "mileage" and "discredit" to the "alleged owners" of such a "fund."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_fund

a good question to ask the owners is "are you a vulture fund"
 
 "Coventry Vultures"

[DRNaith]

When was this CVA agreed?

[Metalmicky]

Total waste of time and money
We need people who will act on the rules of the game, not wasting time talking about it for endless years

I have no idea what that means.

ditto

[silent majority]

When was this CVA agreed?

There was a creditors meeting scheduled for the 9th July, which was adjourned until the 18th.

RCR Holdings was incorporated on 16th July.

RCR Holdings was listed as a creditor at £7,111,480.65 at the reconvened creditors meeting on the 18th July.

The CVA was approved at that meeting.

 

[DRNaith]

When was this CVA agreed?

There was a creditors meeting scheduled for the 9th July, which was adjourned until the 18th.

RCR Holdings was incorporated on 16th July.

RCR Holdings was listed as a creditor at £7,111,480.65 at the reconvened creditors meeting on the 18th July.

The CVA was approved at that meeting.

 

Wow, that's two busy days!!

I assume they bought the debt from other creditors, right?

[drfchound]

When was this CVA agreed?

There was a creditors meeting scheduled for the 9th July, which was adjourned until the 18th.

RCR Holdings was incorporated on 16th July.

RCR Holdings was listed as a creditor at £7,111,480.65 at the reconvened creditors meeting on the 18th July.

The CVA was approved at that meeting.

Not very dodgy then eh. 🤔

You would have thought that they could have been a bit more savvy.

[silent majority]

When was this CVA agreed?

There was a creditors meeting scheduled for the 9th July, which was adjourned until the 18th.

RCR Holdings was incorporated on 16th July.

RCR Holdings was listed as a creditor at £7,111,480.65 at the reconvened creditors meeting on the 18th July.

The CVA was approved at that meeting.

 

Wow, that's two busy days!!

I assume they bought the debt from other creditors, right?

Yes, for £77,000.

It also looks like the acquired debt didn't go through on time, so at the creditors meeting where they listed that £7m as debt it might not have been.

[Pancho Regan]

This stinks to high heaven and back.
Some very dodgy dealing here it seems.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Wasn't there something similar at Northampton a few years back. Related to construction of new stand. I think council gave a grant towards construction and through a Web of companies the owner arranged fo submit over inflated construction costs which were syphoned off into another company which paid for his new luxury mansion?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-northamptonshire-36342097

[wing commander]

      I get what everybody's saying and yes that's something that happens all the time sadly with CVA'S in every form of failing business.However that doesn't get away from the fact that debt whatever it was sold for was accrued in the first place.

Whilst I accept it needs investigating it wont bring Bury back as a league club..For me what really needs looking at from owners of football league clubs and the EFL is a belt and braces review and new leglisation to stop that happening in the first place.Then that safeguards the other 91...That should be priority no1

[albie]

WingCo,

That is what I was getting at in the earlier post.
What actions do we need to see, and from whom, as a result of the investigation?

Re-appraisal of the CVA rules is a non-football matter for the financial authorities.
Consideration of any change across a broad sector of the economy is required.

It is clear that the EFL need to tighten up the ownership test.
But many of the current owners of EFL clubs would fail a more rigorous test.

So why are they going to vote for a new rule which might limit their own role in the football business going forwards?

[the vicar]

Total waste of time and money
We need people who will act on the rules of the game, not wasting time talking about it for endless years

if they don't try they will never know. So it was a wast of time and money when we we t out of business

[silent majority]

      I get what everybody's saying and yes that's something that happens all the time sadly with CVA'S in every form of failing business.However that doesn't get away from the fact that debt whatever it was sold for was accrued in the first place.

Whilst I accept it needs investigating it wont bring Bury back as a league club..For me what really needs looking at from owners of football league clubs and the EFL is a belt and braces review and new leglisation to stop that happening in the first place.Then that safeguards the other 91...That should be priority no1

OK, the CVA investigation is just a side issue really, but one that we thought would be an interesting move.

The real work that we did, over 12 months ago, was to investigate the whole issue of club ownership after we were invited to do so by the FA. That document is in this link here;

http://fsf.org.uk/assets/Downloads/Misc/2019/FSA-Proposals-to-improve-football-regulation.pdf

What's intriguing from our point of view, is that the Bury and Bolton issues would never have happened if our tightened up governance policy had been in place.

[PACMAN]

      I get what everybody's saying and yes that's something that happens all the time sadly with CVA'S in every form of failing business.However that doesn't get away from the fact that debt whatever it was sold for was accrued in the first place.

Whilst I accept it needs investigating it wont bring Bury back as a league club..For me what really needs looking at from owners of football league clubs and the EFL is a belt and braces review and new leglisation to stop that happening in the first place.Then that safeguards the other 91...That should be priority no1

OK, the CVA investigation is just a side issue really, but one that we thought would be an interesting move.

The real work that we did, over 12 months ago, was to investigate the whole issue of club ownership after we were invited to do so by the FA. That document is in this link here;

http://fsf.org.uk/assets/Downloads/Misc/2019/FSA-Proposals-to-improve-football-regulation.pdf

What's intriguing from our point of view, is that the Bury and Bolton issues would never have happened if our tightened up governance policy had been in place.

A very interesting read SM and as you say if implemented would have potentially prevented the whole sorry Bury and Bolton sagas.

Sadly the FA and the EFL are both prehistoric organisations but hopefully some good will come out of this? More worrying though is how many current owners would pass those tests if those proposals came to pass?

[silent majority]

I think that's something we should worry about further down the line, although its a serious consideration that less and less British people buy football clubs.

But here's a twitter link to the vile person called Steve Dale, just listen to what he has to say;

https://twitter.com/garytaphouse/status/1166477125081321472

[Metalmicky]

That's a big document....... however, two points I wholly agree with are....

Community significance - Professional football clubs are not just ordinary businesses. They have a special status in their communities built upon the loyalty of fans over generations and the important part football clubs play in the lives of millions of ordinary people.

Avoidance of conflicts of interest in regulation - The professional league organisations (The Premier League, The English Football League and the National League) are primarily the organisers of competitions with a key role in developing the commercial interests of the game, subject to the overall regime set by the FA.

[Colin C No.3]

What strikes me as a result of this fiasco with Bury & Bolton is that the EFL ‘as the governing body’ is not fit for purpose.

It has not performed due diligence when looking at club owners, seemingly past & more worryingly present.

It has either turned a blind eye or been naive to the shenanigans at Bury allowing game after game to be postponed whilst the club sought new ownership (do me a favour).

It allowed Bolton to cancel a fixture 28 hours before kick off without first contacting them or it’s opponents & some 10 days after that happened, apart from issuing some ambiguous statement when pressed by the media etc., is still to make a decision on whether to ‘punish’ Bolton with further points deductions (the easy option) or to show Bolton in no uncertain terms, that postponing games is not within their ‘power’ & as soon as possible (like yesterday!), put this misdemeanour to bed & inform them that a) The game will not be replayed at a later date, b) Their opponents will be awarded 3 points for the unfilled fixture with an appropriate ‘scoreline’ of 5-0 being awarded based on Bolton’s two fixtures they deemed fit to play immediately before & after this cancelled fixture c) Any expenses incurred by their opponents for the cancelled fixture to be reimbursed with immediate effect, failure to do so will incur further sanctions on the club.

Of course, none of the above will happen so we have to hope that the EFL in it’s procrastination’s has shot itself in the foot & will have brought to the footballing world’s attention it’s total incompetence & inadequacy to continue its role as a governing body in the game.

[arkseyrover]

it stinks to high heaven! The club - or more accurately its dedicated supporters and the local community have been shafted (as we were all those years ago) by a Dick Turpin figure masquerading as Robin Hood. Anyone involved in the fiasco - and I include those with professional responsibility and who are in authority of our game and who may have turned a blind eye or acted with complete incompetence should be brought to task, financially penalised and, if proven, sent to prison. Its a disgrace.

I think the actions outlined by SM to investigare the matter are wholly appropriate and should be applauded.


Just out of curiosity SM - when you talk about 'we' being involved - who exactly do you mean?

[Al4475]

FSF I would imagine.

[silent majority]

FSF I would imagine.

Exactly right, although to bring us up to date since our merger with Supporters Direct, we're now known as the FSA, the Football Supporters Association.

[drfchound]

it stinks to high heaven! The club - or more accurately its dedicated supporters and the local community have been shafted (as we were all those years ago) by a Dick Turpin figure masquerading as Robin Hood. Anyone involved in the fiasco - and I include those with professional responsibility and who are in authority of our game and who may have turned a blind eye or acted with complete incompetence should be brought to task, financially penalised and, if proven, sent to prison. Its a disgrace.

I think the actions outlined by SM to investigare the matter are wholly appropriate and should be applauded.


Just out of curiosity SM - when you talk about 'we' being involved - who exactly do you mean?

In the link in the original post it says the FSA.

[selby]

SM, according to talksport the owner confirmed that he was in for £7 .1 million  debt that he bought for roughly £70 k and as a creditor would claim the full amount at 25p in the pound, a nice little earner for him.

[silent majority]

SM, according to talksport the owner confirmed that he was in for £7 .1 million  debt that he bought for roughly £70 k and as a creditor would claim the full amount at 25p in the pound, a nice little earner for him.

That's right, one of the reasons we have asked for an investigation into the CVA.

In our letter we have raised several key points. I'd rather not copy in the whole letter but here's a couple of points that are relevant;

7. The Guardian further reported that the same RCR Holdings, “bought for £70,000 any potential claim against Bury by Day’s company Mederco, which is in administration." Despite reports that RCR Holdings only held a ‘potential claim’ it was placed into the Bury CVA as an actual £7m debt. Consequently, RCR’s £7m vote enabled Dale to have the CVA passed with the required majority of creditors.

8. Was the connection between Mr Dale and Mr Richards declared to the meeting of creditors?

[silent majority]

It seems our letter has worked!!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/29/bury-cva-investigation