River Don tide times

[BillyStubbsTears]

Reasonable logic.

If central Government cuts the funding for flood defences, like the Tories did in 2010, the Environment Agency cannot pull rabbits out of hats. It has to prioritise cost-benefit. So it's I evitable that the investment will go into Sheffield first.

Not nice for people in Fishlake and Bentley to hear, I understand. But you need to stop and think who is at fault here.

This is a perfect example of what Austerity means in practice. When you spend a decade prioritising cutting Govt spending, you leaving people more vulnerable. The cutting of flood defence spending is THE most idiotic thing this Govt has done. Because floods like last week cost us as a country far more than the money saved.

EDIT: This isn't hindsight by the way. Read this from 6 years ago. If your blood doesn't boil, you're a more forgiving man than me.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/12/uk-flooding-another-austerity-christmas.html

[selby]

  Yes billy it doesn't read well, if the last Labour government hadn't left us broke we may have been able to spend money on flood defences.

[Not Now Kato]

  Yes billy it doesn't read well, if the last Labour government hadn't left us broke we may have been able to spend money on flood defences.

They didn't.  But if you are going to believe the lies of the likes of the Mail and Express...............................

[Filo]

  Yes billy it doesn't read well, if the last Labour government hadn't left us broke we may have been able to spend money on flood defences.

But they didn’t leave us broke, you’re believing right wing lies again

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

You are beyond hope.

Don't listen to me. Listen to an Oxford University professor of macroeconomics in that link that I posted. He's a world expert on Government finances. He conducted the research that (thankfully) kept us out of the Euro.

Go read what he says about this issue.

Or, if you prefer, just moan about shit instead.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I see that daft post by Selby has picked up two likes already.


Fascinating isn't it? The determination of folk to cling into lies that result in outcomes that are against their best interests.

[Not Now Kato]

I see that daft post by Selby has picked up two likes already.


Fascinating isn't it? The determination of folk to cling into lies that result in outcomes that are against their best interests.

Eye, as Forrest Gump once said 'Stupid Is As Stupid Does', or as my Dad used to say, 'There's none so blind as them as can't see'.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

They may not have done but if we spend what you lot on here want we'll be screwed within weeks. It has to end somewhere.

As I keep mentioning let's have some proper solutions it doesnt have to cost the earth to sort flooding issues.

[selby]

 I am not that daft Billy, I never used any bait and caught a shoal of tidlers

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hilarious Selby. Well done.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

You keep on saying that. I'm not sure where you get your information from that informs that opinion.

Flood defence spending is one of the most blindingly obvious things a Govt can invest in. Projects are quick to get started. They don't cost the earth - they are generally low-tech, well-established, relatively easily planned and costed projects with very quick repayment times.

Do the proper accounting. Look at the alternative of what happens if you DON'T invest in flood defences. You shell out from another pot for the damage done by flooding, and the country suffers from lost output while places recover from flooding.

It is beyond infuriating that we as a country have massively cut back our spending on flood defences. It's outrageous for the poor bas**rds in Fishlake, but all the rest of us are also out of pocket as a result.

[selby]

  Thanks Billy.

[selby]

  Seriously now, I do hope that this bloody lot coming down at the moment does not add to the suffering our area is undergoing, although I doubt it, stay safe folks, and  all the luck in the world.

[Filo]

  Seriously now, I do hope that this bloody lot coming down at the moment does not add to the suffering our area is undergoing, although I doubt it, stay safe folks, and  all the luck in the world.

I would expect a rise in River levels but nowhere near the levels of last week

[Wild Rover]

Reasonable logic.

If central Government cuts the funding for flood defences, like the Tories did in 2010, the Environment Agency cannot pull rabbits out of hats. It has to prioritise cost-benefit. So it's I evitable that the investment will go into Sheffield first.

Not nice for people in Fishlake and Bentley to hear, I understand. But you need to stop and think who is at fault here.

This is a perfect example of what Austerity means in practice. When you spend a decade prioritising cutting Govt spending, you leaving people more vulnerable. The cutting of flood defence spending is THE most idiotic thing this Govt has done. Because floods like last week cost us as a country far more than the money saved.

EDIT: This isn't hindsight by the way. Read this from 6 years ago. If your blood doesn't boil, you're a more forgiving man than me.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/12/uk-flooding-another-austerity-christmas.html

How does that account for 2007 though.

[wilts rover]

  Yes billy it doesn't read well, if the last Labour government hadn't left us broke we may have been able to spend money on flood defences.

Well thank goodness for the past 10 years of sound economic management by the Tories then. Or is that not what this graph shows?

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_analysis

[SydneyRover]

''Council leaders demand huge funding rise after floods

Politicians in northern England warn of lasting damage, after 1,758 properties badly hit''

he mayor of the Sheffield city region, Dan Jarvis, described the flood-stricken village of Fishlake, near Doncaster, as having “the feel of a disaster movie”.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/14/council-leaders-demand-huge-funding-rise-after-floods

[BillyStubbsTears]

Reasonable logic.

If central Government cuts the funding for flood defences, like the Tories did in 2010, the Environment Agency cannot pull rabbits out of hats. It has to prioritise cost-benefit. So it's I evitable that the investment will go into Sheffield first.

Not nice for people in Fishlake and Bentley to hear, I understand. But you need to stop and think who is at fault here.

This is a perfect example of what Austerity means in practice. When you spend a decade prioritising cutting Govt spending, you leaving people more vulnerable. The cutting of flood defence spending is THE most idiotic thing this Govt has done. Because floods like last week cost us as a country far more than the money saved.

EDIT: This isn't hindsight by the way. Read this from 6 years ago. If your blood doesn't boil, you're a more forgiving man than me.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/12/uk-flooding-another-austerity-christmas.html

How does that account for 2007 though.

Read that link I put to Simon Wren-Lewis's blog at MainlyMacro.

As he said, there was an independent review in 2007 (coincidentally, at the same time as those floods) which said clearly that flooding was likely to increase in frequency and severity due to climate change. it said that Govt should significantly increase spending on flood defences to counter this. Labour did precisely that. They increased spending on flood defences by 20% between 2007 and 2010, and were planning to increase it further, year on year beyond 2010. But the Tories won the 2010 election and they then immediately cut spending back to the 2007 levels and kept it at that level for several years. The overall result was that, by 2015, the difference between what Labour would have spent and what the Tories did spend was about £1bn.

No, you can criticise the Labour Govt for not spending enough on flood defences BEFORE that 2007 report. That's up for debate, although they didn't have the evidence of the Pitt Report and there had been no serious flooding around Donny for decades. After 2007, we DID have the Pitt Report's guidance. AND we had the evidence that flooding around Donny could be catastrophic. And the Tories ignored both of those facts and cut spending anyway. And nothing was done to protect the Don area north of Sheffield.

But I shouldn't be TOO critical of the Tories.

When the floods hit the Somerset Levels 4 or 5 years back, they immediately found an extra £100m for flood alleviation schemes. I'm sure the fact that every single seat in Somerset is held by a Tory was totally irrelevant to that decision.

[Wild Rover]

BST,

I have read the article, so please tell me how it accounts for 2007 floods.

[SydneyRover]

BST,

I have read the article, so please tell me how it accounts for 2007 floods.

Just a suggestion WR but maybe go back and read the first sentence after 'reasonable logic' and take note of the date in the sentence 

[glosterred]

This grips my shit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-leeds-50346121?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5dce55ddae5e22067323a3ce%26People%20%27trying%20to%20steal%20pumps%27%20in%20Doncaster%262019-11-15T07%3A43%3A35.365Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:12e1a38a-b919-4ffe-9397-251eacf67b2e&pinned_post_asset_id=5dce55ddae5e22067323a3ce&pinned_post_type=share

[SydneyRover]

It must leave those trying to help totally frustrated, maybe the army unless otherwise occupied of course should be brought in sooner to protect against theft and looting leaving local police to help the local people.

[Donnywolf]

... and this is worse arguably because they have got in and stolen (rather than trying to steal)

Apparantly the local well known villain who finally got a jail sentence for past crimes looks like he has been released

https://www.facebook.com/MMWCDC/posts/2656905507699518

[pib]

Reasonable logic.

If central Government cuts the funding for flood defences, like the Tories did in 2010, the Environment Agency cannot pull rabbits out of hats. It has to prioritise cost-benefit. So it's I evitable that the investment will go into Sheffield first.

Not nice for people in Fishlake and Bentley to hear, I understand. But you need to stop and think who is at fault here.

This is a perfect example of what Austerity means in practice. When you spend a decade prioritising cutting Govt spending, you leaving people more vulnerable. The cutting of flood defence spending is THE most idiotic thing this Govt has done. Because floods like last week cost us as a country far more than the money saved.

EDIT: This isn't hindsight by the way. Read this from 6 years ago. If your blood doesn't boil, you're a more forgiving man than me.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2013/12/uk-flooding-another-austerity-christmas.html

How does that account for 2007 though.

Read that link I put to Simon Wren-Lewis's blog at MainlyMacro.

As he said, there was an independent review in 2007 (coincidentally, at the same time as those floods) which said clearly that flooding was likely to increase in frequency and severity due to climate change. it said that Govt should significantly increase spending on flood defences to counter this. Labour did precisely that. They increased spending on flood defences by 20% between 2007 and 2010, and were planning to increase it further, year on year beyond 2010. But the Tories won the 2010 election and they then immediately cut spending back to the 2007 levels and kept it at that level for several years. The overall result was that, by 2015, the difference between what Labour would have spent and what the Tories did spend was about £1bn.

No, you can criticise the Labour Govt for not spending enough on flood defences BEFORE that 2007 report. That's up for debate, although they didn't have the evidence of the Pitt Report and there had been no serious flooding around Donny for decades. After 2007, we DID have the Pitt Report's guidance. AND we had the evidence that flooding around Donny could be catastrophic. And the Tories ignored both of those facts and cut spending anyway. And nothing was done to protect the Don area north of Sheffield.

But I shouldn't be TOO critical of the Tories.

When the floods hit the Somerset Levels 4 or 5 years back, they immediately found an extra £100m for flood alleviation schemes. I'm sure the fact that every single seat in Somerset is held by a Tory was totally irrelevant to that decision.

Mr Johnson was on the BBC News this morning saying the Conservatives have been spending more on flood defences than the last Labour government, which is a very selective truth to put it kindly!

[BillyStubbsTears]

WR.

You've lost me I'm afraid.

2007 was the sort of flooding you used to get once every 50-100 years. Maybe longer timescales than that. Those sorts of floods couldn't ever be entirely ruled out, but they were highly unusual. It would have made little sense to spend money on flood defences in 1950 or 1970 or 1990 because that sort of flooding was rare.

It happened in 2007. The Pitt report published in the same year said previously rare flooding was going to get more common and we should spend a lot more on flood defences. The Tories cut flood defence spending drastically. And it happened again in 2019.

If there's something in that train of facts that you're not happy with, could you be a bit more specific?

[Wild Rover]

Precisely BST. As unusual as The flooding this week past. Fisklake has not flooded in around 100 years, certainly not in my lifetime anyway. Had the Gulfstream (sorry JETSTREAM) not been in the position it was last Thursday and Friday the rain bearing clouds would have passed and in all probability not deposited its deluge on Don catchment area, and if Sheffield had not conducted flood protection to keep Meadowhall and other areas of Sheffield dry then the flooding of Fishlake possibly would not have happened.

[BillyStubbsTears]

WR.

I take your point.

But.

1) These events are getting more regular. Partly through climate change. Partly through more urban development leading to water rapidly running off into rivers, rather than holding in doggy ground. So yes, it was a 1 in 100 year event in 2007. Now it's looking more like 1 in 10 years. 

As for the flood protection in Sheffield worsening the situation in Fishlake, I agree.

But the answer isn't to do nothing. Sheffield was devastated by the 2007 flooding. It would have been last week if the flood defences hadn't been built. The problem is that the investment didn't go in further downstream. That is absolutely unforgivable.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

WR.

I take your point.

But.

1) These events are getting more regular. Partly through climate change. Partly through more urban development leading to water rapidly running off into rivers, rather than holding in doggy ground. So yes, it was a 1 in 100 year event in 2007. Now it's looking more like 1 in 10 years. 

As for the flood protection in Sheffield worsening the situation in Fishlake, I agree.

But the answer isn't to do nothing. Sheffield was devastated by the 2007 flooding. It would have been last week if the flood defences hadn't been built. The problem is that the investment didn't go in further downstream. That is absolutely unforgivable.

So you would build defences all the way to the sea?  Would they not then stall anyway (harking back to my previous geography a level so not exactly high class knowledge)?  Somewhere has to be flooded.....

[drfchound]

WR.

I take your point.

But.

1) These events are getting more regular. Partly through climate change. Partly through more urban development leading to water rapidly running off into rivers, rather than holding in doggy ground. So yes, it was a 1 in 100 year event in 2007. Now it's looking more like 1 in 10 years. 

As for the flood protection in Sheffield worsening the situation in Fishlake, I agree.

But the answer isn't to do nothing. Sheffield was devastated by the 2007 flooding. It would have been last week if the flood defences hadn't been built. The problem is that the investment didn't go in further downstream. That is absolutely unforgivable.

How far downstream would the defences go though BST.
Surely had they gone as far as say Fishlake, the water would have gone over somewhere like Goole.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Have you ever seen the Mississippi?

You build extra capacity in the river channel where you need it. You allow controlled flooding into flood plain areas. Like Thorne Moor as Wilts discussed a day or two ago.

What's the alternative? Expect Sheffield to flood once a decade? That's economically insane. Protect Sheffield and leave the east side of Donny unprotected? That's immoral.