General Election 2019 - 12th December

[bpoolrover]

Do you honestly think that will happen in this country?

[DonnyOsmond]

Do you honestly think that will happen in this country?

If we're importing those foods from the US then we'll have no choice but to accept their regulations. It's like chlorinated chicken, the chlorine isn't bad for you, it's just it doesn't clean it as it should so that's why the US has many more food poisoning cases than we do.

[wing commander]

   This thread is a capsule of why Labour are doing so badly.All of you can do nothing other than bash the Tory's post after post.Theres hardly a point about labour policy's and why they would be better for the country.You are living in the Labour membership bubble blindly ignoring the fact that despite all that you spout the tory's are still well ahead in the polls despite them being a failed goverment over the last parliament.What does that tell you about Labour??????

  Of course that's the right wing press fault entirely no doubt.It's there fault that even now nobody knows whether Labour back leave or remain..Labours wishy washy politics under the worst leader in any generation who has such a negative appeal to the Country has a whole is getting you 9/10th's of nowhere..That's the fact's as we speak.None of you can argue with that .I suggest if you have any hope of convincing people on here or anywhere else for that matter that Labour are a credible alternative to run this Country you start by stopping this endless mud slinging and start promoting the Party you support and telling people why because so far the only people you are convincing are yourselves.

[SydneyRover]

Hubble bubble WC, is there a labour leader you did like and voted for?

Of course the tories get bashed they f@cking well deserve it, show us some thing they did well?

[wing commander]

    Nope but then again I don't believe in socialism.However it's not me that Labour need to convince..It's the floating voters.Hows that going for you?

    Once again you revert to type with wanting to talk about the Tory's.Here's a idea just for a change why don't you talk about Labour.Why they would be so great for our economy and why they continually fail to convince people of it...

[SydneyRover]

It's extremely difficult to gauge how good any political party is without comparing it/them to a baseline/standard and the only standards are past and present parties and I would suggest the best comparisons can be made with a current government so naturally the Tories and their record comes into it.

There is plenty of posts here discussing labour's policies on it's own thread and there has been plenty of criticism of JC and from left wing supporters and lots of distorted facts from others that just parrot what they read/hear in the media.

You yourself have claimed that labour always leaves a deficit without proof and subsequently shown to be incorrect.

So when someone posts things about the Tories why wouldn't those that don't support don't like them offer facts which more often than not show that they/johnson lied or that the post was incorrect, he appears to lie every day. He lied to his own cabinet and the nation only yesterday.

[MachoMadness]

WC, the Tories are currently in power, have been for years, have driven the entire Brexit process from start to finish and have given us the most chaotic peacetime political situation in living memory. They're driving the entire legislative agenda for the country - of course people will bash them. Especially when more the one of their prominent MPs is publicly saying people who burned to death in a horrific fire lacked "common sense" and they're deliberately doctoring footage to make their opponents look bad.

In between all that, you will find posts from BST and wilts in particular discussing Labour policy and economic principles in detail if you care to look.

[wing commander]

   It's strange that Sydney because when I last started a thread specifically about Labour and there failing to make a dent into the British electorate it petered out after a couple of posts.Start one on Boris and the Tory's and it's pages long..

   At the top of this thread is a poll on who you would vote for in the GE.Now of course being Doncaster Labour would win that but out of the 65 people who voted, 36.9% would vote Labour (24 people) and 26.2% would vote Tory (17 people).How many of those Tory voters actually post on these threads?? Hardly any and why is that?? Because people don't think it's worth it,they read the constant bashing of the Tory's from the Left and realise there is little point engaging..

  And that's the point I'm making.Labour have got to start forgetting about Mogg,Boris and start promoting themselves.Telling people what they actually stand for and yes that does include Brexit.How they are going to do it,how they are going to pay for it and how that will grow our economy.People don't need convincing that this Government has been rubbish,everybody knows it.They need convincing that Labour would be better,and right now they are simply failing to do that.!

[SydneyRover]

And that's a very good point you made you know this government is rubbish, everybody knows its leader is a liar and can't be trusted but will you vote for someone else because of that? not necessarily labor whom has returned a surplus every time in recent history except for I think due to the gfc.

And will you admit you got it wrong about claiming labour never leaves a surplus cos it goes to fundamental knowledge about modern politics don't you think?

[wing commander]

  That is a very good question and one I have yet to fully decide on if I'm honest.I don't know if I could vote for anybody tbh right now.I could never vote for Corbyn ever no matter what he says,not just on his magic money tree home policy's but on his absurd views on foreign policy.That and I'm ex military and would never vote for him and some of his front bench on there past sympathy's to organisations who have murdered our own.

I couldn't vote Liberal because there policy on brexit and the failure to stop the will of the people without a second vote is a disgrace.

And I'm far from impressed with the Tory government right now as well as has been highlighted to death on here,so for the first time ever I'm practically unrepresented.

As for your last point,i respect Billy's thoroughness on things like this but haven't had chance to check that but if I was wrong fair enough.Lets try this one instead.No Labour government has left office with unemployment lower than when it was first elected since 1929....

[SydneyRover]

Thanks I appreciate your answer, I'll post this just for an example but leave your last question again to bst as he has all the answer stored in his basement

Not that I think that a deficit is the end of the world but this parameter is always one of the tools used to shape elections
And when you say stop moaning/blaming the press or the msm there is more media overall that supports the right whether you like that fact or not.

''A clear choice: Labour debt or Tory realism''

Telegraph View: the Chancellor insists that he can afford to spend more on the NHS because the economy is growing so fast. Certainly, things would be poorer under Labour.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/11263077/A-clear-choice-Labour-debt-or-Tory-realism.html

''Labour and Conservative records on the national debt''

https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo

But that unemployment comment is both factually incorrect and ,if you'll excuse my bluntness, stupid.

Take the last Labour Govt.

Labour came to power in 1997 after two decades in which we'd got used to 3+million on the dole. By 1997, the Tories had rediscovered economic sense under Ken Clarke for a few years, and unemployment was coming down. Labour kept it decreasing for ELEVEN YEARS. Until the shock of the global financial crash. And even then, they left power with unemployment lower than when they arrived.

This graph of the number of unemployed people in UK starts in the day Labour took power and ends on the day they lost power. It uses Office for National Statistics figures.



So
a) you are factually wrong to say unemployment is always higher when a Labour Govt ends than when it starts.
b) Even if you were right,it is simply stupid to ignore the time in between.

I AM being blunt in calling that a stupid thing to say, but frankly, I'm f**ked off at constantly seeing these lies paraded as intelligent facts by people on the Right, while they turn a blind eye to the utter disaster of Right wing economics over the past 40 years .

[wing commander]

https://fullfact.org/economy/unemployment-under-Labour/

[BillyStubbsTears]

Back to the issue of objective truth and people who ignore it.

We know the Tories are prepared to doctor evidence to make it appear respected organisations are supporting them.

But the LDs are past masters at this.

Look at this campaign leaflet.

 https://mobile.twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1191820920555487232

That looks like SkyNews and The Guardian have both been quoted as saying that the LDs are winning, right?

Err...except those words actually came from the mouth of Jo Swinson. Sky News and The Guardian just reported what she had said.

The LDs have been doing this for years. In the 2010 election, I got a leaflet in bright red colours, designed just like a Labour one, with Labour banners all I er it, full of stories criticising Labour policies. At the very bottom, in tiny font it said "Published by the Liberal Democrats".

It is appallingly untruthful. Designed to deceive.

I'll say again. Find me an example of Labour doing this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo.

Ok. I'll accept that there may have been fractionally higher unemployment when Labour left power than when they started. The ONS figures say differently, but I'll accept yours.

That doesn't change the real point. About what happened in between. Compared to what had happened over the previous 18 years when the Tories were  in power.



Just going on your comment, Lab 97-10 were a failure when measured on unemployment. Do you reckon that graph says that?

It's like having a manager who wins the league every year for 11 years, then in the last 2 he finishes 10thand gets sacked. Was he a failure?

[wing commander]

   Well I've had one yesterday where the my local labour party posted a election leaflet hammering our local Tory Mp Andrew Percy again not much on themselves.Percy produces a leaflet every quarter which keeps constituents informed what he has been doing on constituency issues.One of the headlines on their campaign leaflet was that he was wasting public funds producing it.
    Percy has responded by saying the money to pay for that comes from funds specifically raised by the local party and not public money..You could argue that was untruthful and designed to deceive.

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo

That's claim and counterclaim. In the absence of published accounts from Percy, it's impossible to establish who is correct.

The ones I'm talking about are examples of where the truth is established and in the public domain. And the Tories and LDs have deliberately and unequivocally deceived the public about those facts.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Any chance you could scan and upload that Labour leaflet by the way? If there's an example of Labour deliberately and egregiously deceiving, I want to see that too. This goes beyond party allegiance.

[wing commander]

   haha I will check the bin when I get home Billy but I think it was covered in last nights dismal attempt at cooking spag boll...lol

   But I accept your point on publishing false information whats in the public domain and I accept that both the Tory's and Libs are the most guilty.Reality is that in most cases the average man on the street reads these things and just takes them as fact and has no real interest in checking them..Thats why they do it..it's wrong,regardless of what you end up choosing as your opinion it should be made on facts not lies..

[BillyStubbsTears]

100% agreed Wing Co.

What scares me more than anything about modern politics is that arguable lying has been normalised.

Politics has always involved putting the best gloss on your side and over emphasising the negatives of the other side.

But that is different from lying. 

Politicians didn't used to engage in outright lies. Being caught on that used to mean instant dismissal.

But that's all changed rapidly over recent years. Now outright lying is being seen as normal. And that is desperately dangerous, because it means discussion and decisions cannot be based on sensible analysis. You look round for a "fact" to support your case (hands up. I seem to have done that in the unemployment numbers and if you make that mistake, it's important to accept that you're wrong and accept the actual facts.)

I don't care which party a politician supports. If they lie and deceive egregiously, they need calling out. Again and again. But as you say, it does seem to be coming more from the Tories and the LDs (and from Farage, obviously ..he's been doing it for years) than from Labour or the SNP or the Greens.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Firstly, Good points from both WC and bst here.

Rather busy at the moment but I would say that I agree substantially with wc's stance on this election.  As yet I'm still.unsure who to vote for or if at all....

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/conservatives-and-labour-make-ground-brexit-party-still-top-doncaster-general-election-poll-828583?utm_campaign=Doncaster%20Free%20Press%20-%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=79047745&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--rm92gu7J2t8QwMx1kX1GqwmtX5IYDjy1UJC-DM4ZtjVnlFZaszmRDsgqWAQT9ynlSvHNx3OPfjGg3s8WJpaa7m9sZtA&_hsmi=79047745

[drfchound]

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/conservatives-and-labour-make-ground-brexit-party-still-top-doncaster-general-election-poll-828583?utm_campaign=Doncaster%20Free%20Press%20-%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=79047745&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--rm92gu7J2t8QwMx1kX1GqwmtX5IYDjy1UJC-DM4ZtjVnlFZaszmRDsgqWAQT9ynlSvHNx3OPfjGg3s8WJpaa7m9sZtA&_hsmi=79047745

Very interesting BB but I will be amazed if Labour fail to win in Donny.
I would love one of the other two quoted to win though just to knock Labour off their perch.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Unlikely, if they do tory majority will be huge.  These polls are also far too simple.

[drfchound]

Also interesting that the DFP poll is significantly different to the vsc poll.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lads, lads, lads.

That DFP poll is meaningless. You don't do polling by opening a website and inviting folk to press a button and then adding all the votes up.

You choose a representative cross section of society.

Right proportion of men and women

Old and young

Professional, manual and unemployed

Sun readers and Guardian readers.

Remain supporters and people who are impervious to reasoned argument.


That DFP poll is only going to be representative of DFP readers, and since they are (probably) garrulous Donny male pensioners, it's no wonder that the Brexit Party is in the lead.

[drfchound]

Lads, lads, lads.

That DFP poll is meaningless. You don't do polling by opening a website and inviting folk to press a button and then adding all the votes up.

You choose a representative cross section of society.

Right proportion of men and women

Old and young

Professional, manual and unemployed

Sun readers and Guardian readers.

Remain supporters and people who are impervious to reasoned argument.


That DFP poll is only going to be representative of DFP readers, and since they are (probably) garrulous Donny male pensioners, it's no wonder that the Brexit Party is in the lead.

Just curious here, but why should the people polled be male pensioners?
We have no idea about who has taken part.

As for asking people to press a button on a website, isn’t that what the vsc poll is doing?

[SydneyRover]

Get ready for plenty more of this if the Tories get up.

''America needs to seriously tax the rich – I should know, I'm one of them''

''Thanks to Trump and his 2017 tax bill, income inequality has now reached its highest level since the US Census Bureau first began to tabulate it 50 years ago.

As a successful entrepreneur and founder of Men’s Wearhouse, I’ve seen how tax breaks for corporations and the rich perpetuate income inequality.

Last year, the country’s “Gini” index, which measures the nation’s income distribution, reached its highest reading ever. In our modern-day Gilded Age, more of the nation’s wealth is going to fewer people''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/06/america-tax-rich-wealthy-people-patriotic-millionaires

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

It's black humour mate. Used to be a lot of that in here.

[SydneyRover]

How can either of the main parties make pledges/policy based on out of date figures? or will they be allowed to see them?

''One other item that was meant to be on the agenda for the day (see 8.58am) was the Office for Budget Responsibility publishing revised borrowing forecasts. Here is the story my colleague Larry Elliott wrote last week about how these were expected to show the public finances in a worse state than when the forecasts were last published in March.
OBR to publish borrowing forecasts despite scrapping of budget

But now the OBR has said it has cancelled plans to publish this document, because the cabinet secretary has decided it would not be compatible with election “purdah” rules (which are meant to stop the civil service making announcements during the election period that could affect the result). This is from Sky’s Ed Conway.''

added

Happy to accept criticism or a better explanation about what this all means.