General Election 2019 - 12th December

[SydneyRover]

Lied and sacked
lied and cheated in many if not all of his relationships
lied about Brexit
lied about leaving
Cabinet meeting this week lied to them and broadcast it to the nation.

Inverate liar

[bpoolrover]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-jeremy-corbyn-aide-resigns-20141185.amp This is what you could vote for instead

[bpoolrover]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/11/why-i-warned-non-jews-about-jeremy-corbyn-front-page-jewish-chronicle Or this nice party might be a good vote

[SydneyRover]

You could at least give us some insights about the articles you posted BP whether you believe part or all of them, whether you in fact have read them, what they say that resonates with the debate what doesn't? or not

[bpoolrover]

I have read them and as 1 is from a labour supporting paper it’s probably right, the article says it all Sydney if you want to vote for a party like that’s your choice, lies lies and more
Lies

[SydneyRover]

I have read them and as 1 is from a labour supporting paper it’s probably right, the article says it all Sydney if you want to vote for a party like that’s your choice, lies lies and more
Lies

top summation thanks BP 

[bpoolrover]

Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?

[SydneyRover]

Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?

here you go bp and a right wing rag to boot, not that you should believe all you read in the papers but all this has been widely reported across all the media in the UK and around the world & Johnson to my knowledge has not denied it nor sued for libel. If you don't think a person's personal reputation matters when in comes to being pm that's fine, does that mean you would be happy to have that reputation yourself? Everyone makes a mistake, maybe even a couple but johnson has a long long history of deception being more than reckless with the truth in his personal life and his 'professional' life and he's not very good
at separating the two. On top of that he has a habit of backing loser projects that waste public money.

BONKING BORIS All of Boris Johnson’s women – a rundown of the affairs, flings and love-children left in the former Foreign Secretary’s wake

It has long been the subject of dinner party gossip for friends of the prominent Tory — just how on earth does he do it?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7198455/all-of-boris-johnsons-women-a-rundown-of-the-affairs-flings-and-love-children-left-in-the-former-foreign-secretarys-wake/

[wilts rover]

borisjohnsonlies.com: The lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations of Boris Johnson and his government - by a Daily Mail and former Daily Telegraph journalist

Chosen randomly from the list:

They [the Labour Party] point their fingers at individuals with a relish and a vindictiveness not seen since Stalin persecuted the kulaks - headline article in the Daily Telegraph to launch the Tory election campaign

Verdict

Boris Johnson has made a false and shameful analogy.

Jeremy Corbyn has not threatened anyone with imprisonment, starvation or execution. At most, he intends to reduce Britain’s billionaires to the status of multi-millionaires by taxation.

To compare this to the persecution of the kulaks is to trash history and language. It is an insult to all of Stalin’s victims.

Johnson’s inflammatory falsehood was emblazoned in large bold type over the front page of The Daily Telegraph. This is one of many examples of the media’s complicity in amplifying Johnson’s lies and falsehoods.

https://boris-johnson-lies.com

[bpoolrover]

Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?

here you go bp and a right wing rag to boot, not that you should believe all you read in the papers but all this has been widely reported across all the media in the UK and around the world & Johnson to my knowledge has not denied it nor sued for libel. If you don't think a person's personal reputation matters when in comes to being pm that's fine, does that mean you would be happy to have that reputation yourself? Everyone makes a mistake, maybe even a couple but johnson has a long long history of deception being more than reckless with the truth in his personal life and his 'professional' life and he's not very good
at separating the two. On top of that he has a habit of backing loser projects that waste public money.

BONKING BORIS All of Boris Johnson’s women – a rundown of the affairs, flings and love-children left in the former Foreign Secretary’s wake

It has long been the subject of dinner party gossip for friends of the prominent Tory — just how on earth does he do it?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7198455/all-of-boris-johnsons-women-a-rundown-of-the-affairs-flings-and-love-children-left-in-the-former-foreign-secretarys-wake/

i hate using the sun but as you have
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10294039/corbyn-ira-gunman-support-free/amp/

[SydneyRover]

Johnson on his own would have told more lies throughout his career than the whole of parliament put together and they have been more damaging too. If you or anyone needs an excuse to support the Tory's then use the tired old excuse that they're all the same but it doesn't really wash does it.

That what the Tories have done through the media is harp on about the mistakes of labour and this is the result.

My post about how they have inundated the media with constant messages to crowd out common sense seems to have worked

I haven’t said who I will vote for Sydney, if indeed I bother to vote at all, so I really don’t need the lecture from you thank you.
I would be interested to know if you could back up that first sentence too, about the numbers of lies told by BJ.
I don’t think you can.

You bang on about the Torys being bad but never tell us what the Labour people will do better if they ever win an election.

There you go Hound have a read of the two posts preceeding this one, enjoy 

[drfchound]

As you said yourself, you shouldn’t believe all that you read in the papers.
Oh, and I notice that you still haven’t told anyone what you think the Labour people will do that is better than what we are getting now.
Facts will do.
I am still waiting to be convinced about who to vote for so now is your big chance.
You do appear to be desperate to convince everyone to vote Labour.

[SydneyRover]

As you said yourself, you shouldn’t believe all that you read in the papers.
Oh, and I notice that you still haven’t told anyone what you think the a Labour people will do that is better than what we are getting now.
Facts will do.
I am still waiting to be convinced about who to vote for so now is your big chance.
You do appear to be desperate to convince everyone to vote Labour.

There is a lot of info on labour policy and there was more supplied at their launch and it's under the thread labour policy surprisingly.

If you are not affected are have not been affected by how the tory's have run the economy or read anything by leading economists or bst's substative posts then I can't really help you and I'm not being smart but it has been widely reported for the last 9/10 years and I really give you anything more than what's out there, if you choose to ignore these expert commentaries from  economists that's fine. If you trust Johnson not to take every opportunity to take the UK out with no deal that's also your prerogative.

Voting non conservative and selecting an option that would get these bloated Tories out of office is the best best solution to the last 10 years.

My posts are mainly provoke debate and understand why people vote the way they do and their understanding of their politics and me learning more. Those that make general unsupported statement and I often find them to be incorrect, some don't appear to like that I point it out, but that's what debate is all about, defining the argument and finding the truth hopefully for better outcomes. When I make a mistake I like to apologies learn and move on. Some like to twist the debate just it appears to have an argument, that's why I don't post a lot in the football forum.

[drfchound]

With respect Sydney, if there were enough Tory supporters on this forum, (highly unlikely in Doncaster) then I am sure that they would create a very different picture than the one that you,BST,GW and the other staunch Labourites so eloquently paint.

I have often said on here that I have no political loyalty but I know enough to understand that Tory people could post stuff to back up their argument that they are better for the UK than their opponents.

In reality there are only two people who could be PM after the GE in December and it is my view that Corbyn is the one that many people don’t want to be that man.
Even top Labour MPs don’t want him to be PM.

As for believing what the economists say, well there will be other economists who tell us the complete opposite.
It is a bit like one group telling us how good Brexit will be for us while the remain side tell us why we should stay in the EU.

Who do I believe?

You have clearly nailed your colours to the Labour mast and whatever anyone says will not change your mind.
A Tory supporter will clearly do the same with his side.

To use a football analogy it is a bit like a Leeds fans trying to get a Rovers fan to switch their allegiance.

I genuinely don’t know whether Brexit will be good or bad for us and I suspect that most UK citizens don’t know either.
I don’t know who I will vote for in the GE but in Doncaster my vote won’t count for anything except that if I vote a Labour then they will win by one more vote.
If I vote for someone else then Labour will still win, but by one less vote.


Going back to Corbyn or Johnson for PM, well even people like BST are telling us that Labour can’t win with Corbyn in charge.

[SydneyRover]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.

You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.

As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion 

[Bentley Bullet]

Some people will vote Labour in the name of socialism even when it's as right-wing as a Tory party, as it was under Blair. Not being one I might be way off the mark here, but shouldn't real socialists have voted for Arthur Scargill's Socialist Party back in 1996?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point of fact Hound.

I'm NOT saying Corbyn can't win. I'm saying I don't think he will. But I've been wrong many times before.

What I said was that if the people who now own the Labour party want to paint people like me as an enemy, THEN Labour will never win. That I am utterly certain of.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

By saying that Blair's Labour party was as right wing as a Tory party, you've just lost the right to take part in a grown up debate. On the NHS and school funding, minimum wage, Section 28, Child Trust Funds, lifting of 600,000 kids out of poverty, cancelling third world debt or banning fox hunting, there were dozens of Blair Labour policies that no Tory Govt of the day would have contemplated. You don't have to like or agree with them to see that.

It's idle just to trot out the line you used (although, granted, you DO often hear it from the Far Left - you're in surprising company there.)

For the record, I didn't like Blair's positioning of the Labour party and I left the party because of him. But I still voted for his party. Because that was the pragmatic choice.

My pragmatism says that an electable party that is 50% of what I want is infinitely preferable to an unelectable one that represents my opinions 90%. I truly don't understand anyone who doesn't get that.

[wilts rover]

Well Margaret Thatcher did say that Tony Blair was her greatest achievement.

I would agree with BB in that Blair's New Labour was comparable with the Tories of Macmillan and Heath, so it that way they were right-wing.

Of course back then the right wing were fairly moderate by todays standards. Under Duncan-Smith, Cameron, May and typified by the leadership of Johnson they appear to have Franco, Mussolini and Gengis Khan in their sights.

Blair was Thatcher's greatest achievement. Johnson expelled Thatcher's policy advisor, her Health Secretary and Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory party.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Margaret Thatcher said a lot of idiotic, unsupportable things.

Very telling that the Far Left regularly ignore the substance of arguments like the one I've put forward and put forward Thatcher as the ultimate arbiter on this point. They trot out that one comment when they wouldn't quote Thatcher on anything else. Pathetic, to be frank.

So McMillan's Govt would have supported civil partnerships would it? It would have increased the proportion of GDP spent on NHS funding by 50% would it?

Idiotic, bone idle comparison.

And that's not even the most stupid, facile aspect of this argument. The bigger one is WHY Blair existed. He was a reaction to the unelectable shambles that The Left had made of the Labour party 15 years earlier.

I thought Blair was far too far to the Right. But I understand why he came about. And having Blair in power was infinitely preferable to having Foot lose by 140 seats.

Try to get ANYONE on the far left to address that point.

[drfchound]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.

You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.

As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion 

Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.


As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.

[IDM]

So if most UK citizens don’t know if Brexit will be good or bad for the country, why the hell would a small majority of those who voted, vote to leave.?

I can’t say all of them, as “all” is too definitive, but most things I have seen said and reported by economists and industries have said Brexit, especially no deal, would be bad for the country.

We all know many politicians lie or at least twist things to paint them better or their opponents worse, and the media exaggerates the same, and people who don’t look deeper are taken in and that reflects at the polling booth.

[Bentley Bullet]

I suspect a lot of people voted to leave because they felt they had little to lose and everything to gain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well yes BB.

That was the line that the Leave campaign pumped out.

Thing is, people who get seduced by the line that they have nothing to lose are often surprised how much ends up getting taken from them.

Godwin's Law, I know, but You Know Who came to power on precisely that ticket, with the German people thinking they had nothing to lose after years of Austerity-driven economic slump. They ended up learning just how much more could be taken away from them over the next 12 years.

[IDM]

Perhaps BB but my point, perhaps overly simplistic, is that there was so much uncertainty how would folks know what they were really voting for.?

As for this GE, it’s the same..  we’ve got a huge amount of people in this country who are probably more centre-ist politically than anything else and don’t get extreme wings in either direction.

You’ve got the two main leaders where both have terrible public personas for differing reasons.

Regardless of party policies and manifestos, I suspect many people will vote in the GE as if it’s a presidential election between Johnson and Corbyn.

This really is a prime example of Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich.!

[SydneyRover]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.

You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.

As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion 

Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.

As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.

Hound, I'm not really concerned with likes or dislikes but trying to drill down into commonsense and trotting out that there are economists saying that Brexit is good is likely true but the overwhelming view of economists is that it's not good, and business leaders agree.

You don't need to be an expert commonsense also tells you that if you reduce your market and put impediments in the way of trade it both cost you money and trade, please go ahead and explain how a business any business will run better with less customers, I'm only guessing here but I'm thinking you have never run a business of your own.

[SydneyRover]

I suspect a lot of people voted to leave because they felt they had little to lose and everything to gain.

so it's probably good that everyone is not as perverse as yourself bb

[wilts rover]

Idiotic, bone idle comparison.

About as idiotic and bone idle as someone believing that people who want: government investment in infrastructure, a publicly run and funded health service, railways and utilities being run for the nation, a decent old age pension, strong union rights - or the policies of Clement Atlee - are 'Far Left'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I agree with all of those policies and more. That's not what this part of the discussion is about.

I use the term Far Left to describe an attitude that demands ideological purity and despises compromise. The sort of people who tell me I'm a Blairite social democrat. I've dealt with people like that for most of my adult life. They are well meaning, but ultimately very damaging to the Labour party and the interests of the people the Labour party should represent.

[drfchound]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.

You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.

As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion 

Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.

As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.

Hound, I'm not really concerned with likes or dislikes but trying to drill down into commonsense and trotting out that there are economists saying that Brexit is good is likely true but the overwhelming view of economists is that it's not good, and business leaders agree.

You don't need to be an expert commonsense also tells you that if you reduce your market and put impediments in the way of trade it both cost you money and trade, please go ahead and explain how a business any business will run better with less customers, I'm only guessing here but I'm thinking you have never run a business of your own.

Again Sydney, sorry to tell you, but you are wrong again.
I had my own Plumbing Supplies business for many years.
Very successfully too.