Phoney War over

[wing commander]

    So far in this election campaign it's been pretty low key.The Tory's happy with their lead in all the Polls don't want to throw anything controversial into the mix and are happy for it to stay that way..

Labour promised a campaign like we've never seen but so far have been keeping their powder dry until their manifesto launch this week only throwing a couple of unrealistic ideas like broadband and free dentist checks into the mix..

However tonight we have a live debate which i'm sure all of us interested in politics will be watching.Boris will be keen to keep it on Brexit and away from the NHS and Jezza will be keen to do exactly the opposite.

Although i don't believe in Corbyn or his policy's i actually think he will do okay tonight.He's a lot calmer than Boris in these situations but just like Boris he is capable of throwing in a comment or two to that alienates people..

It's going to be interesting thats for sure..

[Donnywolf]

It seems to be me and you so far today and I am not enthused at all by the GE Campaign and thankfully be one of the thousands avoided "it" by watching Rovers

They can both lie through their teeth I suspect because as this link shows Johnson is doing it routinely and is not being held to account by anybody

I have really never known anything like the last 5 or so years for saying one thing which most people know is a fabrication or of course promising stuff and then ratting on it soon after elected

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/18/boris-johnson-lying-media?CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1574104702

[SydneyRover]

That's a very important article thanks DW and those that want to perpetuate the lies that he and some of the media circulate should get a grip. Mistakes can easily be made by repeating without checking but repeating when presented with the truth is just dishonest.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Once again, Peter Oborne is bang on the money. Because he values principles over blind party support.

This is what I've been saying in here for ages.

"Others take the view that all politicians lie, and just shrug their shoulders. But it’s not true that all politicians lie. Treating all politicians as liars gives a licence for the total collapse of integrity of British politics, a collapse that habitual liars such as Johnson are delighted to exploit."

This goes MILES beyond party loyalty. It's clear that Johnson is either willing to lie about anything and everything for advantage, or (and this is what I'm now beginning to believe) he actually has a personality disorder and he lies instinctively to impress. I've worked with someone like that and it is horrifyingly destructive.

Either way, it's clear that he has utter disregard for the truth. As Oborne says, THIS IS NOT NORMAL! This is NOT what normal politicians do! Giving power to someone like that is unbelievably dangerous. Because, if someone is prepared to simply lie about EVERYTHING, when these things are easily checkable and the true facts known, (from whether he's stopped drinking, to whether there are cameras in a room, to regulations on the shape of bananas, to whether a hospital is going to be built in a town, to whether he's had a bas**rd child, to whether we give £350m/week away) how the f**k do you hold them to account?

How can you dream of giving power to someone like that?

[wing commander]

   Because the alternative is far worse in my eyes.The damage Labours foriegn policy will have on us would be catastrophic in my opinion..In the end i will probably vote Tory.Not for BJ but for my local mp who does a very good job on local issues and on one of mine, i asked his help on earlier this year as regards my sons special needs which he took up for me with the local authority and sorted, and right now thats the only straw i can clutch at because when it comes to party politics i dont feel represented at the moment..

[Ldr]

WC you convey my thoughts exactly too

[SydneyRover]

   Because the alternative is far worse in my eyes.The damage Labours foriegn policy will have on us would be catastrophic in my opinion..In the end i will probably vote Tory.Not for BJ but for my local mp who does a very good job on local issues and on one of mine, i asked his help on earlier this year as regards my sons special needs which he took up for me with the local authority and sorted, and right now thats the only straw i can clutch at because when it comes to party politics i dont feel represented at the moment..

Foreign Policy being such a complicated area it would be good to understand what exactly your fears are WC, thanks

[BillyStubbsTears]

Phoney War certainly IS over.

Look what that Kitson Cummings did tonight.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50482637

He's beyond f**king reprehensible. They and he will do anything and everything they can to stop you bring informed of facts. Regardless of political allegiance, if you're not worried by this, you've got little respect for democracy.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Stupid thing to do and pointless, people aren't daft.

The debate itself was poor. Format had no flow and both came across pretty poorly in the areas you would expect them to.  To me it was a goalless draw, nothing revolutionary.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

People aren't daft?

On the week of the Referendum, half the population still believed that we give £350m/week to the EU.

YOU might be too smart to be taken in by this. But the evidence is that a lot of our electorate can be taken for a ride.

[BillyStubbsTears]

   Because the alternative is far worse in my eyes.The damage Labours foriegn policy will have on us would be catastrophic in my opinion..In the end i will probably vote Tory.Not for BJ but for my local mp who does a very good job on local issues and on one of mine, i asked his help on earlier this year as regards my sons special needs which he took up for me with the local authority and sorted, and right now thats the only straw i can clutch at because when it comes to party politics i dont feel represented at the moment..

Wing Co.

I fully understand your stance on Corbyn..


What I don't understand is that you've not criticised Johnson's approach to Russia.

Corbyn may or may not make us more vulnerable to Russia. Johnson already HAS. He runs a party that is massively funded by Russian businessmen-gangsters, close to Putin. He's gone to Russian Mafia bunga-bunga parties and it is beyond credibility that that wasn't a massive security risk. MI6 certainly thought so. He's refused to let you and I see a security services report into the extent of Russian meddling in our elections.

That's all fact. It's happened. It's not hypotheticals about what MIGHT happen. The security threat that he represents is at the very least as big as the one Corbyn offers.

[scawsby steve]

BFYP.

People aren't daft?

On the week of the Referendum, half the population still believed that we have £350m/week to the EU.

YOU might be too smart to be taken in by this. But the evidence is that a lot of our electorate can be taken for a ride.

Daft? So we're back to name calling again.

It's not taken you long.

[wilts rover]

Boris Johnson can lie through his teeth, ably assisted by the Tory Press Office the links are there above - and people are trying to find excuses as to why they would vote for him!!

If you choose to vote for Boris Johnson that is entirely your own responsibilty, not Jeremy Corbyn, Jo Swinson, Nicola Sturgeon or Count Binface. You know exactly what you will get - we have just had 9 years of it - now take ownership of it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

People aren't daft?

On the week of the Referendum, half the population still believed that we have £350m/week to the EU.

YOU might be too smart to be taken in by this. But the evidence is that a lot of our electorate can be taken for a ride.

Daft? So we're back to name calling again.

It's not taken you long.

Stop being so daft. I was answering BFYP and using the word he used.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I despair at Corbyn and his team.

There are frozen bacteria in caves on the Moon who knew that Johnson was going to pile in on attacking Corbyn for not saying which side he would support in a new Ref. Corbyn's team has had months to sort out an answer that would smack Johnson down. He responded with an instantly forgettable answer which I instantly forgot.

What he COULD have said was "That's a rich question, coming from a hypocrite who spent the first two weeks of the last Ref campaign holed up with his advisers deciding whether supporting Leave or Remain would be better for his career."

[SydneyRover]

   Because the alternative is far worse in my eyes.The damage Labours foriegn policy will have on us would be catastrophic in my opinion..In the end i will probably vote Tory.Not for BJ but for my local mp who does a very good job on local issues and on one of mine, i asked his help on earlier this year as regards my sons special needs which he took up for me with the local authority and sorted, and right now thats the only straw i can clutch at because when it comes to party politics i dont feel represented at the moment..

Wing Co.

I fully understand your stance on Corbyn..


What I don't understand is that you've not criticised Johnson's approach to Russia.

Corbyn may or may not make us more vulnerable to Russia. Johnson already HAS. He runs a party that is massively funded by Russian businessmen-gangsters, close to Putin. He's gone to Russian Mafia bunga-bunga parties and it is beyond credibility that that wasn't a massive security risk. MI6 certainly thought so. He's refused to let you and I see a security services report into the extent of Russian meddling in our elections.

That's all fact. It's happened. It's not hypotheticals about what MIGHT happen. The security threat that he represents is at the very least as big as the one Corbyn offers.

There's a lot of criticism of US politics (from me too) but if Russian money was poured in to support any party in the US there would be uproar. If any of that money had reached the labor party there would be squealing and calls of communists running the country, more than there is now. Big big double standards going on, on this forum and in the media.

[albie]

It will be interesting to see if Twitter decide to block the Tory account after tonights deception;
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/11/tories-conservative-party-cchq-factcheckuk-just-used-disinformation-trick-could-get-them-blocked-twitter

Own goal IMO.

[SydneyRover]

Corbyn/labour is written off by the never-Corbyn brigade on here and most if not all of the r-w media and yet the tory's still feel the only way they can win is to misrepresent the facts, take money from Putin's communists (friends of russia) and cheat?

"Tories pretend to be factchecking service during leaders' debate

Party accused of misleading public by tweeting anti-Labour posts as ‘factcheckUK’'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tories-tweet-anti-labour-posts-under-factcheckuk-brand

[scawsby steve]

Boris Johnson can lie through his teeth, ably assisted by the Tory Press Office the links are there above - and people are trying to find excuses as to why they would vote for him!!

If you choose to vote for Boris Johnson that is entirely your own responsibilty, not Jeremy Corbyn, Jo Swinson, Nicola Sturgeon or Count Binface. You know exactly what you will get - we have just had 9 years of it - now take ownership of it.

Who's Count Binface, Wilts? I'm looking for someone credible to vote for, and he sounds OK to me.

[Donnywolf]

Corbyn/labour is written off by the never-Corbyn brigade on here and most if not all of the r-w media and yet the tory's still feel the only way they can win is to misrepresent the facts, take money from Putin's communists (friends of russia) and cheat?

"Tories pretend to be factchecking service during leaders' debate

Party accused of misleading public by tweeting anti-Labour posts as ‘factcheckUK’'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tories-tweet-anti-labour-posts-under-factcheckuk-brand

Honestly - you just couldnt make it up

Write a book on this GE campaign so far (or the B****t mess) and most people would throw it / them away after 2 Pages or so saying they were not possible to believe

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, according the BBC's Fact Checking team (not the Conservative Central Office version) our wonderful PM was at it again last night with the lies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50421141

See, folk keep saying they are all as bad as each other. But the evidence says they are not. Johnson is off the scale when it comes to lying.

[MachoMadness]

Even worse, the Tories are now sharing their OWN FactcheckUK posts as if it's from an independent fact-checking charity.

https://twitter.com/CCHQPress/status/1196895054482280448

Just appalling.

[Donnywolf]

Well, according the BBC's Fact Checking team (not the Conservative Central Office version) our wonderful PM was at it again last night with the lies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50421141

See, folk keep saying they are all as bad as each other. But the evidence says they are not. Johnson is off the scale when it comes to lying.

Completely off the scale when it comes to lying  - dont think I have ever seen a person in Office who can tell such barefaced lies

You do encounter some "in life" who tell such huge porkies - embroider every story - meet people (famous people) who know the story teller by name AND they themselves then become a joke. I have known one

BUT Johnson is just way way way worse that any person I have every known in any walk of life and BST yes you are right I think in saying it maybe IS a condition he has and just cant help doing it

THEY - the Media though should be stopping him at every opportunity instead of like Andrew Marr did the other day just letting huge porkies go unchallenged

[Padge_DRFC]

The reality is they're going to win a majority

[BillyStubbsTears]

DW.

As I say, I've worked with someone who had a similar relationship with the truth, and it is horrific to deal with. I see a lot of similarities with Johnson. The instinctive approach of saying ANYTHING which he thinks is what the listener wants to hear. The brazen approach of repeating a lie even when he's been picked up on it. The implied belief that he is so important that treating your listener as thick is utterly unimportant, as long as it gets you the outcome YOU want.

It does seem like a pathological mental condition on Johnson's part. I used to think he was just amoral, but that one at the hospital a few weeks ago shocked me to be honest. When he was upbraided by a parent for using the hospital as a media stunt and he automatically responded "There's no media here." Right in front of journalists, photographers and video cameramen! That is not a studied decision to lie. It's a gut response to a difficult situation. How anyone can see that and no be terrified of him being PM beats me.

Having experienced the carnage that my colleague left when he took things to far, the thought of Johnson with a similar illness being PM is a shocking thing to contemplate.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Corbyn/labour is written off by the never-Corbyn brigade on here and most if not all of the r-w media and yet the tory's still feel the only way they can win is to misrepresent the facts, take money from Putin's communists (friends of russia) and cheat?

"Tories pretend to be factchecking service during leaders' debate

Party accused of misleading public by tweeting anti-Labour posts as ‘factcheckUK’'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/19/tories-tweet-anti-labour-posts-under-factcheckuk-brand

That's all well and good but separate he two they aren't connected.  There are two issues...

1. What are the tories and Johnson playing at? Use your heads you can win this with ease if you get it right, stop scoring own goals.

2.  Corbyn is actually much the same but he leaves himself too many weaknesses like not being decisive. He isnt strong enough to be leader, never has been and never will be.  Shame in some ways as like his policies or not he talked very well at times I thought, much more mature than Boris was.

The sum of the points is, Cameron and Milliband in 2015 would've walked all over both of these.

[Donnywolf]

It does seem like a pathological mental condition on Johnson's part. I used to think he was just amoral, but that one at the hospital a few weeks ago shocked me to be honest. When he was upbraided by a parent for using the hospital as a media stunt and he automatically responded "There's no media here." Right in front of journalists, photographers and video cameramen! That is not a studied decision to lie. It's a gut response to a difficult situation. How anyone can see that and no be terrified of him being PM beats me.

100% THAT

[GazLaz]

The reality is they're going to win a majority

They are far from certain to get a majority.

[Bentley Bullet]

Boris didn't say "There's no media here." He said "There's no press here."

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-what-did-boris-johnson-mean-when-he-said-there-were-no-press-at-his-hospital-visit

[bpoolrover]

Having just watched the debate I thought it was quite poor from both of them, corbyn poor on brexit and boris waffling to much, not sure how much there is to be gained from these debates as they both seem more interested in not saying anything bad rather than answering the questions