It Wasn't a Lie

[BigH]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1207811/General-Election-BBC-QT-Question-Time-audience-live-news-latest-Labour-tax-manifesto-UK

The IFS has said so. That's the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies by the way.

Bolton...ignorance...full of sh*t...hmm

[BillyStubbsTears]

And this must be THE most depressing decision of the entire election.

https://mobile.twitter.com/krishgm/status/1197811903894044672

So, the BBC says they will correct falsehoods. But when that idiot last night said he's not in the top 50% of earners when he's earning £80k, no one from the BBC corrects his at the time. They correct in on their Fact Check website, which...how many people read?

The BBC is effectively washing its hands of being responsible for untruths being let rip.

[drfchound]

And this must be THE most depressing decision of the entire election.

https://mobile.twitter.com/krishgm/status/1197811903894044672

So, the BBC says they will correct falsehoods. But when that idiot last night said he's not in the top 50% of earners when he's earning £80k, no one from the BBC corrects his at the time. They correct in on their Fact Check website, which...how many people read?

The BBC is effectively washing its hands of being responsible for untruths being let rip.

But he didn’t say he wasn’t in the top 50% of earners BST.
HE said he wasn’t in the top 5%.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Hound. I'm sorry but you're wrong.

His precise words were.

"I am nowhere near in the top 5%, let me tell you, I'm not even in the top 50%,"

[drfchound]

Ok, I didn’t see it, that I asked what he actually said.
I only read what was written in the paper.
That just shows how much notice people should take about links that people post eh.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It WAS The Express Hound. What do you expect.

The point of the OP was to point out that The Express story screaming that someone had accused Corbyn of lying was in fact designed to deceive.

Because, The Express isn't a newspaper. It's a Far Right propaganda rag. Unfortunately, for some unfathomable reason, thousands of folk pay to be lied to by it on a daily basis.

[drfchound]

Fair enough.
However plenty of people could say similar things about left wing papers lying about other parties.

[SydneyRover]

Reality

When it comes to annual income, a salary of £80,000 would put someone firmly in the top 5% of UK earners. According to HMRC taxpayer data from 2016-17, the 95th percentile of earnings began at £75,300. If this has gone up in line with other earnings growth, it will be just over £80,000 this year.

Those figures do not include non-taxpayers - once they are included, earnings of £80,000 would put someone in the top 3% of the UK population, according to the Institute of Fiscal Studies.

However, wealth is another matter. This is much harder to calculate, as the richest people tend to distribute their assets around the world. Add in the use of offshore companies by some, and it becomes impossible to know where the boundary lies between the richest 5% and everyone else.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/22/factcheck-earning-80000-or-more-top-5-of-uk-earners-labour

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fair enough.
However plenty of people could say similar things about left wing papers lying about other parties.

Hound.

If other papers lie,point the lies out.

I'm sick of hearing this "both sides are the same" nonsense, when the evidence overwhelmingly shows that it's actually endemic on one side and very rare on the other.

Point out where the Guardian or the Mirror lie as regularly as the Mail and Express. Point out where Corbyn lies as regularly and pathologically as Johnson.

If you don't, your assertion that both sides do it is groundless.

[SydneyRover]

this may help if it's not obvious 


http://www.humantruth.info/uk_newspapers_comparison.html

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Come on chaps does it matter what one guy says really? It is his opinion.  Why the obsession with facts before speaking?

A more important question is what is actually rich and what isnt? I have said it before 80k is not rich..comfortable yes, but not rich.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's about objective truth BFYP.

Hound has been taken in by a rag deliberately trying to deceive. We've all got a responsibility to counter that.

[SydneyRover]

Come on chaps does it matter what one guy says really? It is his opinion.  Why the obsession with facts before speaking?

A more important question is what is actually rich and what isnt? I have said it before 80k is not rich..comfortable yes, but not rich.

Very enlightening bfyp, explains a lot

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I agree on that the press and this guy are different matters. Press I agree with they should not spout lies they should state the truth.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Come on chaps does it matter what one guy says really? It is his opinion.  Why the obsession with facts before speaking?

A more important question is what is actually rich and what isnt? I have said it before 80k is not rich..comfortable yes, but not rich.

Very enlightening bfyp, explains a lot

Explain?

[SydneyRover]

Those in the top 5% of earners are not rich?

Who is then?

Haven't had time to fact check this. But if at 80k one is not rich, what about these?

the average salary in the UK for men and women combined was £29,009, which includes those in both full-time and part work. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423 and £12,083 for those in part-time.Nov 13, 2019

I doubt someone on average or low wages would say that and it shows to me anyway a lack of understanding for those that have little hope or choice to improve their lot.

I'm desperately trying to express myself in a way that doesn't insult you.

[DonnyOsmond]

Those in the top 5% of earners are not rich?

Who is then?

Haven't had time to fact check this. But if at 80k one is not rich, what about these?

the average salary in the UK for men and women combined was £29,009, which includes those in both full-time and part work. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423 and £12,083 for those in part-time.Nov 13, 2019

I doubt someone on average or low wages would say that and it shows to me anyway a lack of understanding for those that have little hope or choice to improve their lot.

I'm desperately trying to express myself in a way that doesn't insult you.

There's a trend graph where the more people earn the higher the value of rich is to them. So for someone earning 20k to them 60k would be rich. To someone earning 60k to them 100k is rich.

If 50% was earning over 80K then why the f*ck do we have food banks?

[SydneyRover]

If 80k is not rich where do these people sit in the grand scheme ...........

The £73 standard weekly allowance for universal credit, the government’s flagship benefit claimed by 2.3 million people, is now equivalent to 12.5% of median earnings. By contrast, when unemployment benefit was introduced in 1948 it was worth 20%. As a result, millions are being “excluded from mainstream society, with the basic goods and amenities needed to survive let alone thrive increasingly out of their grip”, the study by the IPPR thinktank said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/uk-social-security-payments-at-lowest-level-since-launch-of-welfare-state

[drfchound]

Those in the top 5% of earners are not rich?

Who is then?

Haven't had time to fact check this. But if at 80k one is not rich, what about these?

the average salary in the UK for men and women combined was £29,009, which includes those in both full-time and part work. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423 and £12,083 for those in part-time.Nov 13, 2019

I doubt someone on average or low wages would say that and it shows to me anyway a lack of understanding for those that have little hope or choice to improve their lot.

I'm desperately trying to express myself in a way that doesn't insult you.

BFYP didn’t say that the top 5% are not rich.
He said that people on £80k are not rich, but they are comfortable.

Also, don’t forget that someone on 80 grand might be spending most of that on buying a house and a flash car so might not have much free cash.

There are plenty of people who live beyond their means.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

And here is the exact problem. It is not as simple as you make out is it.  To someone with nothing 50 quid seems rich, it doesnt work like that, compare and you fail completely to understand that every single person is different.  I am not at all saying that those people are poor I made that point in my post, however given the actual definition of rich you cannot say necessarily that someone with 80k is rich, every set of circumstances is different and this is the problem with that policy.  Granted there are some that are. Someone earning 80k in Doncaster is going to be much better off than the same person earning that in London.

As for me, you can say what you like. I am absolutely happy with my life, lifestyle and where I am today hence you aren't going to insult me not one bit.

[drfchound]

Those in the top 5% of earners are not rich?

Who is then?

Haven't had time to fact check this. But if at 80k one is not rich, what about these?

the average salary in the UK for men and women combined was £29,009, which includes those in both full-time and part work. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423 and £12,083 for those in part-time.Nov 13, 2019

I doubt someone on average or low wages would say that and it shows to me anyway a lack of understanding for those that have little hope or choice to improve their lot.

I'm desperately trying to express myself in a way that doesn't insult you.

There's a trend graph where the more people earn the higher the value of rich is to them. So for someone earning 20k to them 60k would be rich. To someone earning 60k to them 100k is rich.

If 50% was earning over 80K then why the f*ck do we have food banks?

Genuine question DO.
What percentage of UK people actually use food banks?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Those in the top 5% of earners are not rich?

Who is then?

Haven't had time to fact check this. But if at 80k one is not rich, what about these?

the average salary in the UK for men and women combined was £29,009, which includes those in both full-time and part work. For those in full-time work, the average UK salary is £35,423 and £12,083 for those in part-time.Nov 13, 2019

I doubt someone on average or low wages would say that and it shows to me anyway a lack of understanding for those that have little hope or choice to improve their lot.

I'm desperately trying to express myself in a way that doesn't insult you.

There's a trend graph where the more people earn the higher the value of rich is to them. So for someone earning 20k to them 60k would be rich. To someone earning 60k to them 100k is rich.

If 50% was earning over 80K then why the f*ck do we have food banks?

Genuine question DO.
What percentage of UK people actually use food banks?

My sister worked at a food bank in Lancashire for several years. Some of the stories she shared were heartbreaking. There are families out there who are utterly desperate. The concerning thing was that many of the users are working people, generally on minimum wages or zero hour contracts. These people are barely keeping their heads above water.

In terms of numbers of users, The Trussel Trust which is the largest food bank network in the UK handed out 1.2 million food packages in 2016.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

According to a survey report by the Independent last year, around 4million people had used a food bank at some time.

The Trussel Trust estimates that they served 800,000 different people last year, and I've seen somewhere else that they serve about half the food banks in the UK.

So perhaps 1.6m last year, which would be about 3% of the adult population.

Anyone who is comfortable, as I am, who reads that and isn't ashamed of our country and prepared to pay a bit more in tax...well, they live by a different value set to me.

And for the record, I certainly don't earn £80k, but I'd have no problem paying another 5% in tax to start turning round the shit heap of social problems that these bas**rds have turned a blind eye to.

[bpoolrover]

How would you help the people that use food banks? Genuine question?

[Herbert Anchovy]

How would you help the people that use food banks? Genuine question?

Increase the minimum wage

[SydneyRover]

And here is the exact problem. It is not as simple as you make out is it.  To someone with nothing 50 quid seems rich, it doesnt work like that, compare and you fail completely to understand that every single person is different.  I am not at all saying that those people are poor I made that point in my post, however given the actual definition of rich you cannot say necessarily that someone with 80k is rich, every set of circumstances is different and this is the problem with that policy.  Granted there are some that are. Someone earning 80k in Doncaster is going to be much better off than the same person earning that in London.

As for me, you can say what you like. I am absolutely happy with my life, lifestyle and where I am today hence you aren't going to insult me not one bit.

I genuinely meant that I was trying not to insult you.

The plain fact is that someone earning 80k is rich because they have choices, someone living hand to mouth doesn't, 'rich' is subjective 80k a year is not.

[bpoolrover]

How would you help the people that use food banks? Genuine question?

Increase the minimum wage if your on benefits and they increase the minimum wage you will be no better off, they would just reduce your benefits

[SydneyRover]

fmd

[BillyStubbsTears]

Get rid of the obscenity of Universal Credit. Control rents. Increase the minimum wage as HA says.

And here's the Biggie. You need to turn round the utter obscenity that we've allowed to develop in Britain over the past 40 years. The concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands.



Just look at what we've allowed.

THAT is why we have 4 million people using food banks. We didn't have that issue in 1975, when we we nowhere near as rich as a country. Because what we had was shared more equally.

That graph is the reason why, for all my complaints about Corbyn, I will still vote for him. Because it is only Labour that takes that problem seriously and has plans to change it.

And for the record, that will almost certainly reduce my own standard of living. Because I'm relatively well off and I suspect in practice Labour will find they need to increase taxes on more than the top 5%.

But they should. Because it's needed. To start healing the wounds that 40 years of this philosophy has let rip.

[bpoolrover]

So people on benefits how will they gain? If the minimum wage goes to 10 pound Instead of 8.19 the person on benefits will see none of that increase not a penny unless they raise the amounts you can earn on benefits, if they do that then the person on benefits will earn more in a lot of cases than someone not on benefits