2 days to go until General Election....

[MachoMadness]

But if it wasn't for Boris and chums we'd have left already...

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

I'll say it again. If May had been interested in a cross-party approach to Brexit, LAbour would have gone for that like a shot. If there had been a Norway deal offered, this would have been done a year ago with Labour's support. That was Labour's policy from 2016 to last year. That is STILL Corbyn's preference. Don't blame Labour for not signing up to the deals that May and Johnson posed for us.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And that deal would have got majority support in the country too. It's the Tories who decided that your vote meant a Brexit that was never discussed in 2016.

[scawsby steve]

You're all missing the point. I was telling you why they'll lose on Thursday. After all the stick you've given the Tories, can you give any other reason why they'll win?

This election was called because of Brexit, and it will be decided on Brexit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That may well be true. To be honest I'm expecting it.

Doesn't change the facts. And the fact is, you've been played.

[drfchound]

Hound.

It's not from the BBC. It's from a non-political body representing the advertising industry.

It's not right impressive for democracy when folk don't even read articles but just assume what they are.

Never the less BST.
Reported under the BBC NEWS banner.

[DonnyOsmond]

Clearly some people don't wish to believe that the Labour Party is in general far more honest than the LD's or Tories. Even when presented with a researched article proving it.

Makes you wonder who has their blinkers on doesn't it?

You're probably right that Labour is generally more honest than the others Wilts; but unfortunately for them, they lazily and carelessly delivered the most relevant lie of the last 3 years; "we will honour the result of the referendum".

That, and that alone, is why they'll get dicked on Thursday. If they hadn't conspired to block Brexit, they'd have absolutely p*ssed this election, despite the criticisms of Corbyn.

Sorry to break it to you hun but Labour haven't been in power so it was a bit hard to enact any of their policies x

[BillyStubbsTears]

It appears what SS wanted Labour to do was to be ignored for 3 years while the Tories decided what Brexit meant, then doff their caps and vote for it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

It's not from the BBC. It's from a non-political body representing the advertising industry.

It's not right impressive for democracy when folk don't even read articles but just assume what they are.

Never the less BST.
Reported under the BBC NEWS banner.

What the actual...?

Yes. It's news. The BBC News section is supposed to report news.

Interestingly though, they decided to put a headline that implies that all the parties are dicking about, whereas the actual news story made it clear that Labour wasn't.

[scawsby steve]

It appears what SS wanted Labour to do was to be ignored for 3 years while the Tories decided what Brexit meant, then doff their caps and vote for it.

That's fine BST, as long as they realise the consequences of it.

[scawsby steve]

Clearly some people don't wish to believe that the Labour Party is in general far more honest than the LD's or Tories. Even when presented with a researched article proving it.

Makes you wonder who has their blinkers on doesn't it?

You're probably right that Labour is generally more honest than the others Wilts; but unfortunately for them, they lazily and carelessly delivered the most relevant lie of the last 3 years; "we will honour the result of the referendum".

That, and that alone, is why they'll get dicked on Thursday. If they hadn't conspired to block Brexit, they'd have absolutely p*ssed this election, despite the criticisms of Corbyn.

Sorry to break it to you hun but Labour haven't been in power so it was a bit hard to enact any of their policies x

So they didn't get to vote on any of it? OK.x

[BillyStubbsTears]

So what precisely DO you think Labour should have done?

[scawsby steve]

So what precisely DO you think Labour should have done?

Whatever it was they meant when they said they'd honour the referendum result. I've no idea what they meant, do you?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes. I know precisely what they meant. It was in their manifesto in 2017, saying what they would do if they win the election.

You might recall that they LOST that election, and, as May then Johnson kept them out of the loop, they didn't really have much chance to implement that, did they?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Page 24 here if you're interested SS.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjT8-y2iKzmAhU8UxUIHSHyBQMQFjAAegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw1T9SsTRaP20X9ory5skl6I

What it DOESN'T say is "We will not just accept whatever deal the Tories come up with then vote for it." Because, of course, they didn't have to say that did they? Because it was bleeding obvious. Hasn't stopped you raising this point week after week after week.

[SydneyRover]

Steve, I had you down as a reasonble straight up sort of bloke but this insistance on honouring something that was a lie doesn't work, what about all those that were wrongly convicted and spent years in jail, what about when stomach ulcers were thought to be caused by stress, history is littered with false representations that have had to be corrected can we never say oops we f**ked that up and take the right course?

[scawsby steve]

Steve, I had you down as a reasonble straight up sort of bloke but this insistance on honouring something that was a lie doesn't work, what about all those that were wrongly convicted and spent years in jail, what about when stomach ulcers were thought to be caused by stress, history is littered with false representations that have had to be corrected can we never say oops we f**ked that up and take the right course?

Thanks for that Sydney; your compliment about me is spot on. As regards the rest, if what you say is obvious then Labour will get a whopping majority tomorrow.

Have a lovely day.x

[wing commander]

For me when the Country voted in the referendum the majority of voters just didn't realise the complexity and the different variables that would need to be negotiated,and more importantly the massive difference in deals between the two party's..We all have our opinion on it and it's been discussed to death but i cant blame Labour for not voting for the Tory deal because it's totally opposite to the Soft brexit deal they want...

However where i do take massive issue with Labour is there deliberate attempt to try and put a sack over the publics heads over their Brexit position now...Anybody who follows these things closely will now know that Labour is a remain party in all but name without actually admitting it..

We have Corbyn who everybody knows is a euro sceptic,he has decided he's going to be neutral.Labours front bench however has been very vocal that they would campaign for remain including the shadow brexit secretary.And over a 100 labour prospective mp's have signed a letter saying they would campaign for remain too..They have even been putting that on their campaign leaflets...

Of course they wont come out and admit it because they want to hide that as best they can from the Labour leavers because they need their vote,for now at least anyway.If by some chance they do form a goverment with the snp then that position will change very quickly mark my words and they will publically get behind remain..

They will negotiate a deal with the EU,that will be practically the same as staying in the EU that will get slaughtered by true brexiteers who cant vote for it,then they will throw it to the public asking us to reject it knowing that remain is their true aim..
 

[Filo]

For me when the Country voted in the referendum the majority of voters just didn't realise the complexity and the different variables that would need to be negotiated,and more importantly the massive difference in deals between the two party's..We all have our opinion on it and it's been discussed to death but i cant blame Labour for not voting for the Tory deal because it's totally opposite to the Soft brexit deal they want...

However where i do take massive issue with Labour is there deliberate attempt to try and put a sack over the publics heads over their Brexit position now...Anybody who follows these things closely will now know that Labour is a remain party in all but name without actually admitting it..

We have Corbyn who everybody knows is a euro sceptic,he has decided he's going to be neutral.Labours front bench however has been very vocal that they would campaign for remain including the shadow brexit secretary.And over a 100 labour prospective mp's have signed a letter saying they would campaign for remain too..They have even been putting that on their campaign leaflets...

Of course they wont come out and admit it because they want to hide that as best they can from the Labour leavers because they need their vote,for now at least anyway.If by some chance they do form a goverment with the snp then that position will change very quickly mark my words and they will publically get behind remain..

They will negotiate a deal with the EU,that will be practically the same as staying in the EU that will get slaughtered by true brexiteers who cant vote for it,then they will throw it to the public asking us to reject it knowing that remain is their true aim..
 

Thats the stance a leader should take when asking the electorate their opinion, he then can’t be accused of swaying ine side or the other, his own vote is of no concern to anyone else, just like ours

[wing commander]

  Oh that's absurd Filo....If that was the case he would shackle the rest of the party to do the same thing, and not let labour mp's in remain areas put that they would campaign for remain,yet the Labour leaflets in leave area's dont mention it at all.Flint withstanding.

He's a eurosceptic at odd's with the majority of his party..He's taken that stance for peace and harmony with the unions and front bench and if you believe anything else you are away with the fairy's..It's certainly not for the benefit of the Country thats for sure

[GazLaz]

For me when the Country voted in the referendum the majority of voters just didn't realise the complexity and the different variables that would need to be negotiated,and more importantly the massive difference in deals between the two party's..We all have our opinion on it and it's been discussed to death but i cant blame Labour for not voting for the Tory deal because it's totally opposite to the Soft brexit deal they want...

However where i do take massive issue with Labour is there deliberate attempt to try and put a sack over the publics heads over their Brexit position now...Anybody who follows these things closely will now know that Labour is a remain party in all but name without actually admitting it..

We have Corbyn who everybody knows is a euro sceptic,he has decided he's going to be neutral.Labours front bench however has been very vocal that they would campaign for remain including the shadow brexit secretary.And over a 100 labour prospective mp's have signed a letter saying they would campaign for remain too..They have even been putting that on their campaign leaflets...

Of course they wont come out and admit it because they want to hide that as best they can from the Labour leavers because they need their vote,for now at least anyway.If by some chance they do form a goverment with the snp then that position will change very quickly mark my words and they will publically get behind remain..

They will negotiate a deal with the EU,that will be practically the same as staying in the EU that will get slaughtered by true brexiteers who cant vote for it,then they will throw it to the public asking us to reject it knowing that remain is their true aim..
 

Thats the stance a leader should take when asking the electorate their opinion, he then can’t be accused of swaying ine side or the other, his own vote is of no concern to anyone else, just like ours

I agree. I don’t see why he should have to nail his colours to the mast in a referendum situation. It’s a people’s choice, why should he try to influence it?

[wing commander]

So why is it okay for the the rest of his front bench to do the opposite???

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co.

There were front benchers in the Tory party on both sides in 2016.

There were front benchers of both the Tories AND Labour on both sides in 1975.

It's a subject that cuts across party lines. It it DID before Johnson purged the Tories this year. That was very, very unhealthy for democracy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lord knows I've had criticisms of Corbyn, and I don't think he's been honest over Brexit. He's wanted Brexit all his life but he knows he'd be toast in the Labour party if he came out explicitly for that.

But.

The more I think about it, the criticisms of him from Brexiters don't make sense.

They insist it's a decision for the people, not for politicians. But when Corbyn has said "OK. I'll negotiate a deal, then out that to Ref2 against Remain and I'll stay out of the campaign", Brexiters have screamed "You CAN'T do that! You're a leader! You have to tell us how to vote!"

Corbyn's position, the more I think about it, is the only one that makes sense.

[wing commander]

Well we agree that it makes sense at least,it makes sense that he can't go against the Unions,it makes sense that he cant go against his senior front bench and it certainly makes sense that Labour need to keep as many leavers on board as they can prior to the election...

So what we are disagreeing with each other about is the reason that he's taking this stance.I admire you towing the party line Billy I really do,but I suspect deep down even you think there might be some other logic in this position other than doing what he thinks is best for the Country...

[DonnyOsmond]

Labour are the only ones playing to the middle ground, trying to bring the country together, everyone else is appealing to one extreme of the spectrum.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co.

Read my first paragraph in that previous post.

And then consider. It's perfectly possible to find the right solution after starting from a wrong initial condition.

[i_ateallthepies]

For me when the Country voted in the referendum the majority of voters just didn't realise the complexity and the different variables that would need to be negotiated,and more importantly the massive difference in deals between the two party's..We all have our opinion on it and it's been discussed to death but i cant blame Labour for not voting for the Tory deal because it's totally opposite to the Soft brexit deal they want...

However where i do take massive issue with Labour is there deliberate attempt to try and put a sack over the publics heads over their Brexit position now...Anybody who follows these things closely will now know that Labour is a remain party in all but name without actually admitting it..

We have Corbyn who everybody knows is a euro sceptic,he has decided he's going to be neutral.Labours front bench however has been very vocal that they would campaign for remain including the shadow brexit secretary.And over a 100 labour prospective mp's have signed a letter saying they would campaign for remain too..They have even been putting that on their campaign leaflets...

Of course they wont come out and admit it because they want to hide that as best they can from the Labour leavers because they need their vote,for now at least anyway.If by some chance they do form a goverment with the snp then that position will change very quickly mark my words and they will publically get behind remain..

They will negotiate a deal with the EU,that will be practically the same as staying in the EU that will get slaughtered by true brexiteers who cant vote for it,then they will throw it to the public asking us to reject it knowing that remain is their true aim..
 

Hang on, hang on... can someone please explain what I'm missing here?  Those two statements are diametrically opposed.

[wing commander]

No they dont,Corbyn has took that stance because of his partys position,the mps have taken that position because that's there own views..

[wing commander]

Wing Co.

Read my first paragraph in that previous post.

And then consider. It's perfectly possible to find the right solution after starting from a wrong initial condition.

Well I dont believe that's the reason for one minute and if roles were reversed I doubt you would either..lol