Something for Labour supporters to ponder

[wilts rover]

Thanks Ldr.

No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.

So you dont want Labour to appeal to floating voters then? Be hard to win elections without us

I want a programme that appeals to a large number of the 10 million people who did vote Labour and a large proportion of those 15 million people who registered but didn't vote.

Should it also appeal to you then great - but why would you devise a programme for 12 million people who voted Tory- and probably will again - when there are 30 million who didn't.

[wilts rover]

On both Billy and Tyke points see what Lisa Nandy said on tv today: people liked the policies but they didn't trust us to deliver them.

So that is the challenge of the next leader and leadership team - they have 5 years to work out how to get round the mainstream media and convince the public - or at least enough of the 30 million people (68%) who didn't vote Tory last month - that they can be a credible party of government who will deliver on their policies.

How they will do that is one of the question I would like the candidates to address in the leadership race.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I beg to differ.

The policies I'm talking about are extremely popular in polls. Labour need to do a credible and very long duration job of setting out the detail and pushing the way they would fund it. Relentlessly. Over and over.

What they don't need to do is to publish a manifesto in an election with surprises like free broadband and then a couple of days later say "oh aye. And we'll find £60bn for the WASPI women." That was suicidal.

There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.

And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.

Labour has a proud record on those topics.

So...

Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?

We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...

Generally the Tories fall on their sword Billy as Major did in the 90's .

Johnson will fall on his too in my opinion , absolutely convinced of it .

Once the economy slumps , jobs are lost , house prices go in to negative equity territory Johnson will have the music to face .

So the answer to your point in my opinion is it's as much about the Tory Party failing spectacularly as it is about Labour changing hearts and minds .

I don't actually recall Blair's 97 manifesto to be anything other than safe ground , the minimum wage had been talked about for a decade previously , it wasn't anything new at the time in reality .

The Tories have failed for a decade , borrowed more money than any Labour Government combined in history in the last 9 years .

Austerity was an ideology to shrink the state not a necessity policy to balance the books .

Foodbanks are now an acceptable way for working people to feed themselves , the NHS underfunded and not fit for purpose .

And that's without even mentioning Brexit which occured to heal the divisions in the Tory Party .

You'd think under those conditions the left and radical would triumph , instead they got routed .

I'm an old leftie myself Billy but I'd sooner win elections myself thanks very much than sing the Red Flag .

Stay calm , be credible and sensible and the keys to number 10 are easily attainable .

Johnson and his government will be Labour's biggest friend in the years to come .

[wilts rover]

I didn't see the interview but I notice Keir Starmer is quoted as saying on Marr something similar to that I posted earlier: that he also believe Labours radical policies were popular and he would continue with them.

Here is the evidence which backs this up:

What voters think about nationalisation:

Railways: 56% support, 22% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Water: 50% support, 25% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Electricity: 45% support, 29% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Royal Mail: 55% support, 28% oppose (ComRes, 11-12 September)

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1213837178561843200

[tyke1962]

I didn't see the interview but I notice Keir Starmer is quoted as saying on Marr something similar to that I posted earlier: that he also believe Labours radical policies were popular and he would continue with them.

Here is the evidence which backs this up:

What voters think about nationalisation:

Railways: 56% support, 22% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Water: 50% support, 25% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Electricity: 45% support, 29% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)

Royal Mail: 55% support, 28% oppose (ComRes, 11-12 September)

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1213837178561843200

The problem is Wilts and I don't disagree with the polls at all by the way .

Anything nationalised is communism according to the Establishment and their media attack dogs .

Both you and I know it isn't but that's what you are up against .

A Nationalisation programme gives them the mandate to attack you just as Corbyn found out .

I think you'd possibly get away with the railways given they are expensive and run inefficiently .

I'd hold fire on the rest personally and make the railways a success story first giving you the credibility to nationalise further .

[DonnyOsmond]

So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.

Sydders Labourr would have done a far better job of wrecking the economy that's why folks voted Conservative.

Yeah because the economists were wrong when they said they backed Labours spending plan over the Conservatives, not the people who were led down the garden path.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I'm generally with you on much of what you've said here, except that I think you're being optimistic if you think you'll make much of a dent in the 15million who didn't vote. Because the issue isn't so much that they DIDN'T vote. It's that they DON'T vote. They're not sat at home waiting for a great Labour manifesto to inspire them. They are disengaged entirely from politics. Making inroads into that problem is a generation-long task. It's education and culture that need to be changed and I don't see a difference being made on that in 4-5 years.

I do agree that there's unlikely to be much churn between Lab and Tory directly, so Labour shouldn't be appealing to Tory voters - at least not long-term confirmed Tories. What Labour has to do is to neutralize the Greens and LDs as repositories of left-leaning votes while pulling back the few hundred thousand supporters they lost to Farage in the north and Midlands marginals. And THERE'S a challenge because the former want progressive, internationalist approaches while the latter are instinctively socially conservative and nationalistic. I don't know how you solve that.

There is the massive issue though. That Oppositions don't win elections - Governing parties lose them. Look at the changes of Govt over the past 50 years.

2010 - Labour crippled by the Global Financial Crisis.

1997 - Tories lost economic credibility after Black Weds, and lost party discipline over Europe.

1979 - Labour hammered by the IMF crisis and the Winter of Discontent.

1974 - Tories lost control of the nation in the Three Day Week.

In every case, the number 1 driver of the change of Govt was the sense that the governing party had lost control and didn't deserve to continue. Opposition's then win by looking like a credible alternative.

And THAT is what is so frustrating right now. Never since the War has a governing party been such a shambolic, out of control mess as the Tories over the past 2 years. And at the end of that, they've hammered Labour because Labour simply did not come across as a serious, credible Govt in waiting.

That's the most critical thing now. No more f**king about avoiding people's gazes when being asked if the leader will kneel before the Queen. No more acting as an apologist for foreign powers. No more self-indulgent months and months of navel gazing about the precise definition of anti-Semitism that we'd accept.

 Get the core message sorted. Stick to it remorselessly. And close down distractions immediately.

[tyke1962]

Wilts.

I'm generally with you on much of what you've said here, except that I think you're being optimistic if you think you'll make much of a dent in the 15million who didn't vote. Because the issue isn't so much that they DIDN'T vote. It's that they DON'T vote. They're not sat at home waiting for a great Labour manifesto to inspire them. They are disengaged entirely from politics. Making inroads into that problem is a generation-long task. It's education and culture that need to be changed and I don't see a difference being made on that in 4-5 years.

I do agree that there's unlikely to be much churn between Lab and Tory directly, so Labour shouldn't be appealing to Tory voters - at least not long-term confirmed Tories. What Labour has to do is to neutralize the Greens and LDs as repositories of left-leaning votes while pulling back the few hundred thousand supporters they lost to Farage in the north and Midlands marginals. And THERE'S a challenge because the former want progressive, internationalist approaches while the latter are instinctively socially conservative and nationalistic. I don't know how you solve that.

There is the massive issue though. That Oppositions don't win elections - Governing parties lose them. Look at the changes of Govt over the past 50 years.

2010 - Labour crippled by the Global Financial Crisis.

1997 - Tories lost economic credibility after Black Weds, and lost party discipline over Europe.

1979 - Labour hammered by the IMF crisis and the Winter of Discontent.

1974 - Tories lost control of the nation in the Three Day Week.

In every case, the number 1 driver of the change of Govt was the sense that the governing party had lost control and didn't deserve to continue. Opposition's then win by looking like a credible alternative.

And THAT is what is so frustrating right now. Never since the War has a governing party been such a shambolic, out of control mess as the Tories over the past 2 years. And at the end of that, they've hammered Labour because Labour simply did not come across as a serious, credible Govt in waiting.

That's the most critical thing now. No more f**king about avoiding people's gazes when being asked if the leader will kneel before the Queen. No more acting as an apologist for foreign powers. No more self-indulgent months and months of navel gazing about the precise definition of anti-Semitism that we'd accept.

 Get the core message sorted. Stick to it remorselessly. And close down distractions immediately.

Billy it may well turn out to be not the election to have won given what the clown faces for the next five years .

I agree with the points you've raised , people are disenfranchised from politics and that's unlikely to change .

You have to work with what you have .

The clown has gone for broke on his brexit strategy , there's nobody left to blame now , he owns the next five years .

He falls and dies now on his own sword .

If he thinks the EU are going to roll over and give us a competitive edge in a trade deal inside 12 months then good luck with that .

If he rolls over and let's the EU tickle his belly then he's in for a rough ride within his own party and media backers .

If he takes us out with a no trade agreement then the consequences are obvious .

Once this thing starts costing people money and prosperity he's toast .

He owns it now , the whole 9 yards .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

May 1992. Tories had just won an election that Labour had been favourites to win.

I remember my grandad (Labour councillor and NUM branch official) saying to me that it was a poisoned chalice and that Labour were better off losing.

I've no idea to this day where he got his political acumen from. He'd left school at 13 to work at Cadeby pit and had no understanding of geo-economics and -politics.

But he called it bang on - 7 months later came Black Weds and the Tories fell apart. They wouldn't win another majority for nearly a quarter of a century.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a much sharper and higher profile person than me saying precisely what I was saying a few days ago.

https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1214504685647908864

If Labour doesn't get on board with strongly lauding what went RIGHT under Blair and Brown, they are doubling the severity of the task of persuading the electorate to support a future Labour Govt. That doesn't mean happy clapping and ignoring the many errors. But if you claim to be a Labour party supporter and never have a single good word to say about what Labour did in power, you are a major part of the problem.

There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.

And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.

Labour has a proud record on those topics.

So...

Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?

We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...

[Sprotyrover]

Shawn Lawson is right the Labour Party is shite and has been so for the past 40 years,well said that man!

[wilts rover]

I don't get this constant harping on about Labour 'loosing working class voters'. The 'working class' have never been one particular thing or voice.

Certain workers went to work during the General Strike - as did miners during the Miners Strike. Enoch Powell represented a working class seat and the working class made up most of Oswald Mosley's support.

A point I think that is demonstrated perfectly by the contribution of some posters on this board.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Shawn Lawson is right the Labour Party is shite and has been so for the past 40 years,well said that man!

It's like dealing with a bolshy five year old.

[Sprotyrover]

👍😂😂😂

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. This is what I mean about what Labour achieved when last in Govt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/labour_history/status/906441586183094279

When have you EVER heard a Corbynista talk approvingly of this record?

[SydneyRover]

There's been a lot of rewriting of history since that time bst.

[wilts rover]

By the way. This is what I mean about what Labour achieved when last in Govt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/labour_history/status/906441586183094279

When have you EVER heard a Corbynista talk approvingly of this record?

I certainly heard Corbyn saying that Sure Start Centres were one of the main achievements of New Labour in the way they reduced poverty during the last election - I think it was a speech but I can't find it, the press release of the policy goes on about Tory cuts but it was the acknowledgement to New Labour that suprised me when I heard it - so failing that how about:

this bloke:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-top-policy-advisor-andrew-fisher-praises-tony-blairs-new-labour-a6814296.html

or this bloke:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11764704/Jeremy-Corbyn-I-want-to-build-a-National-Education-Service.html

or even this bloke:
https://news.sky.com/story/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-reaffirms-support-for-united-ireland-11528215

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

Accepted. I went OTT in suggesting there was never any praise for the last Labour Govt.

But you see my point? And Harvey's? You have to dig to find it and you yourself say you were surprised by Corbyn praising Blair.

The problem is that the air of, at the very least studied indifference, at worst, outright hostility to the last Labour Govt impresses those on the far side of the Left, but it doesn't make it easy to convince the rest of the population that Labour can be trusted to deliver in Govt.

[wilts rover]

Billy what you have actually shown is that the people who were hostile to Corbyn werre always hostile to Corbyn and were always going to be hostile to Corbyn - because of what they wanted him to say & be rather than what he actually said or did.

I notice Keir Starmer has recruited two of the blokes behind Labour First onto his staff - the right-wing group who want to expel/purge all Momentum members and anyone else who promotes socialists policies from the Labour Party.

How that will make Labour a 'broad church' or stop factionalisation on the left I wait to see, but you and tyke should feel at home if he gets in.

[tyke1962]

Billy what you have actually shown is that the people who were hostile to Corbyn werre always hostile to Corbyn and were always going to be hostile to Corbyn - because of what they wanted him to say & be rather than what he actually said or did.

I notice Keir Starmer has recruited two of the blokes behind Labour First onto his staff - the right-wing group who want to expel/purge all Momentum members and anyone else who promotes socialists policies from the Labour Party.

How that will make Labour a 'broad church' or stop factionalisation on the left I wait to see, but you and tyke should feel at home if he gets in.

At home would be perhaps pushing it Wilts , did I buy the New Labour mandate fully ? , absolutely not .

For starters I'm not pro EU as Blair was and throwing benefits at former Northern industrial heartlands instead of solving the problem wasn't my idea of great governance .

However Blair won elections and anyone who routs the tories 3 times has to be respected .

Wilts you will not take capitalism on in opposition and get elected to government as Corbyn found out to his cost and the millions of us now subjected to another 5 years of Tory rule .

You talk the talk and walk the walk in opposition and once elected to government you change the direction of travel and deliver the socially progressive policies you historically have always stood on .

The bloody left are hopeless at winning elections , play the game Wilts just as those blue nose tw@ts do that's my point .

Stand on a left wing platform in opposition then good luck with that , get in to government and roll out nationalising the railways then that's another thing altogether .

I'm old enough to know but I never saw one thing in a Thatcher manifesto that said the Northern Heartlands were going to be destroyed or the Unions were going to be attacked aggressively .

Play the game mate .