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Author Topic: Scottish Indyref 2  (Read 589 times)

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belton rover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #30 on May 09, 2021, 06:45:55 pm by belton rover »
It’s very unlikely to repeat because, generally, people accept these democratic decisions.
I honestly don’t know the answer to this question: when was the last referendum for Scotland to leave? And the one before that?

You say it is very unlikely to repeat, but what if they lose again? What happens when the next 10 years of people die and children become adults? And the next? And the next?


In answer to your question, there should be a very significant period of acceptance before it is even considered again. Impossible to put a year on it, but I think if it is to happen again, none of us should know anything about it.



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normal rules

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #31 on May 09, 2021, 08:40:03 pm by normal rules »
An independent Scotland would raise big questions re the trident nuclear deterrent. They are based at Faslane currently and I’m unsure anywhere on the English or welsh coast would be suitable as a replacement. Plus that would cost billions no doubt for relocation.
Then there are the raf bases like Lossiemouth which houses 4 squadrons of typhoons and is one the largest raf bases in the uk.

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #32 on May 09, 2021, 09:19:43 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
If a motion of UDI was put before and passed by the Scottish Parliament, wouldn't that be just as democratic as a referendum continually denied by Boris?

Dagenham Rover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #33 on May 09, 2021, 10:05:54 pm by Dagenham Rover »
Oh the once in a generation referendum that they had a couple or so years ago

I don't like the result lets have another go   

SydneyRover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #34 on May 09, 2021, 10:37:08 pm by SydneyRover »
Did you get your mum to help you with the answer, it took you long enough?





You really are an obnoxious person SR.
I have other things to do, probably unlike yourself.
You have suggested that I don’t know where Hadrian’s Wall is just start an argument when clearly my post didn’t suggest anything like that.
Also, for your information, my mother is dead so please don’t be a prat by bringing her into your imaginary world.
Half a World away.

No offence at all meant hound, but credit where it's due hound, how you manage to keep your little feuds going across the forum/s is amazing

MachoMadness

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #35 on May 09, 2021, 10:40:26 pm by MachoMadness »
I'm not sure why people get hung up on this "once in a generation" thing. That's just hype to get people out to vote. The SNP are entitled to hold a referendum every 6 months if they keep getting a mandate for it. The political landscape has changed substantially since the last one.

I think Scotland is better off as part of the UK for the record, but there clearly is growing support for at least a referendum up there, if not independence.

SydneyRover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #36 on May 09, 2021, 10:44:44 pm by SydneyRover »
A bit ironic if anyone tries to say a small margin isn't a mandate? Boot on the other foot, if England were ruled by Scotland would we be voting on it?

drfchound

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #37 on May 09, 2021, 10:50:51 pm by drfchound »
Did you get your mum to help you with the answer, it took you long enough?





You really are an obnoxious person SR.
I have other things to do, probably unlike yourself.
You have suggested that I don’t know where Hadrian’s Wall is just start an argument when clearly my post didn’t suggest anything like that.
Also, for your information, my mother is dead so please don’t be a prat by bringing her into your imaginary world.
Half a World away.

No offence at all meant hound, but credit where it's due hound, how you manage to keep your little feuds going across the forum/s is amazing




SR, I only go on this forum so I’m not sure why you put the plural on your post.
Some of your posts are so bizarre and confrontational.
You tell me you aren’t interested in what I have to say and then you ask me a question.
Very odd that.
Anyway, have a nice life and I hope you can find someone else to fall out with.
The right person is out there for you.

SydneyRover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #38 on May 09, 2021, 10:58:34 pm by SydneyRover »
                                                                   




                                                                      :)

drfchound

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #39 on May 10, 2021, 08:43:56 am by drfchound »
It’s very unlikely to repeat because, generally, people accept these democratic decisions.
I honestly don’t know the answer to this question: when was the last referendum for Scotland to leave? And the one before that?

You say it is very unlikely to repeat, but what if they lose again? What happens when the next 10 years of people die and children become adults? And the next? And the next?


In answer to your question, there should be a very significant period of acceptance before it is even considered again. Impossible to put a year on it, but I think if it is to happen again, none of us should know anything about it.





Some interesting points there Belton.
If it is right to allow referendum after referendum because of the rights of young people who didn’t vote because they were too young to do so at the last vote then I guess we should be thinking about another Brexit referendum in five or six years time.

River Don

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #40 on May 10, 2021, 09:06:28 am by River Don »
It’s very unlikely to repeat because, generally, people accept these democratic decisions.
I honestly don’t know the answer to this question: when was the last referendum for Scotland to leave? And the one before that?

You say it is very unlikely to repeat, but what if they lose again? What happens when the next 10 years of people die and children become adults? And the next? And the next?


In answer to your question, there should be a very significant period of acceptance before it is even considered again. Impossible to put a year on it, but I think if it is to happen again, none of us should know anything about it.





Some interesting points there Belton.
If it is right to allow referendum after referendum because of the rights of young people who didn’t vote because they were too young to do so at the last vote then I guess we should be thinking about another Brexit referendum in five or six years time.

It can't happen regularly with either.

In both cases it sets a structure for the economy. Each time the structure is reset there is huge disruption. Brexit is a huge disruption, a Scottish Independance would be another huge disruption. The economy needs stability.

I think now we are in a state of flux. The assumption that the future for the UK would integrate with the rest of the EU economic area is being broken. The Scots I think want to return to it. I don't think their ambition is really to have an Independant Scottish nation with its own currency and economy.

The real argument is, should Scotland have its say on whether it wants to be a part of the UK Economic area or the EU economic area?

When Scotland last voted on the question of Independance it was part of the EU. Now it's been forced out of it by Brexit.

Even in the first Indyref is was probably more to do with the EU. An independent Scotland would probably have wanted to adopted the Euro currency and move to life under the European Central Bank rather than the Bank of England.

It's all about who controls the money in the end.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 09:17:55 am by River Don »

River Don

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #41 on May 10, 2021, 09:47:02 am by River Don »
This is why it's vital for the tories to prevent another indyref.

If Scotland goes off and joins the EU, then I think it scuppers Brexit. A hard border here on the mainland would be intolerable.

drfchound

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #42 on May 10, 2021, 10:22:57 am by drfchound »
RD, I know and understand that it isn’t economically viable to vote for Brexit or national independence every ten years and to possibly go in and out depending on the outcome of the vote.
I mentioned it in my earlier post because some posters were asking the question, is it fair to impose the outcome of a referendum on young people ten years or so down the line.
As a remain voter I was disappointed that our Brexit vote went the way it did but there is no point in crying about it now.
It is what it is and we have to crack on and make the best of what our situation is.

River Don

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #43 on May 10, 2021, 10:37:12 am by River Don »
In a sense it's not fair to impose something on future generations but life is often not fair.

It's just one of those things that has to be decided one way or another.

Metalmicky

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #44 on May 10, 2021, 11:41:07 am by Metalmicky »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Not Now Kato

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #45 on May 10, 2021, 12:09:06 pm by Not Now Kato »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Metalmicky

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #46 on May 10, 2021, 12:25:34 pm by Metalmicky »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Didn't realise that NNK - I assume that doesn't cover lorries/vans/trade vehicles though...?

River Don

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #47 on May 10, 2021, 12:48:35 pm by River Don »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Once the two areas are working to different standards there would have to be border checks though. For instance, if England allowed hormone injected cattle, the EU would need to check for that at the border with Scotland wouldn't they?

SydneyRover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #48 on May 10, 2021, 12:55:49 pm by SydneyRover »
Funny innit politicians want to stop votes on what they don't want but want flexibility to call an election whenever they feel they have an advantage.

Not Now Kato

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #49 on May 10, 2021, 12:59:11 pm by Not Now Kato »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Didn't realise that NNK - I assume that doesn't cover lorries/vans/trade vehicles though...?

 
It does only covers people MM.  If Scotland gained independence AND joined the EU then Goods would be subject to the same cross border checks as they are between any third country, (which the UK is), and the EU.  However, if Scotland gained independence but did not become a member of the EU then border control for the movement of goods would be something that the UK and Scottish would have to negotiate and agree on.
 
Here's a link to the CTA....  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-travel-area-guidance

selby

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #50 on May 10, 2021, 01:02:46 pm by selby »
  Should Scots born residents in England, Wales, and Northern Ireland be given a vote?

Not Now Kato

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #51 on May 10, 2021, 01:04:40 pm by Not Now Kato »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Once the two areas are working to different standards there would have to be border checks though. For instance, if England allowed hormone injected cattle, the EU would need to check for that at the border with Scotland wouldn't they?

Quite right RD.  The point I was making though was that the free movement of people would not be impacted.  Goods would be subject to border checks and controls, the extent of which would be determined based on whether Scotland joins the EU or not - they could have independence without joining the EU.
 
The CTA is very important as it confers significant benefits to all parties.  Pity it's so little publicised.

SydneyRover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #52 on May 10, 2021, 01:10:24 pm by SydneyRover »
I think a lot of Scots would vote for independence if EU membership was guaranteed, but that's only my opinion. So the process and time lines would need to be drawn up and of course a probability scale of being accepted.

albie

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #53 on May 10, 2021, 01:56:29 pm by albie »
Too much "what if" for some folks here.

The issue is simple....do the Scots have the right to a vote if the majority want it?
To me, that is a clear yes.

What happens after that is up to them.....it is not our business.
After all, you would not want your next door neighbour to have control over your finances, would you?

Metalmicky

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #54 on May 10, 2021, 01:59:19 pm by Metalmicky »
I think that Brexit has thrown a hand grenade into the independence issue. Brexit means that free and easy movements and relationship with England, Northern Ireland and Wales would be greatly impacted - especially if the EU get involved in deciding the border relationships .... and the Barnier bandwagon moves in to decide the protocols required.

Scotland would end up being faced with the same kinds of choice that faced the UK in Brexit.  Would an independent Scotland have a hard or soft border with England? - in essence a second land border between the UK and the EU.... and we all know how smoothly the other border issue has gone.  What would the EU demand from the Scots regarding their border? Will cars and trains need to stop en route for passport checks? - will lorry drivers have their ham sandwiches confiscated?  And who decides all this – Barnier and Brussels or Sturgeon and Scotland?  It could be very messy and the flow of goods north and south would be inevitably be slowed and probably add costs...... are the Scottish public OK with this?

This is without starting on the Euro or £ issue - and that may prove even harder to navigate through.

Freedom of movement is already covered by the Common Travel Area which provides the absolute right for people anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to travel, live and work anywhere in England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This agreement predates, and is not in any way impacted by, Brexit it also provides the added benefits for all people to enjoy associated rights and privileges, including voting in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services of those areas the choose to visit or live.  It has nothing to do with the EU in any way, shape or form!
 
The CTA was reaffirmed in 2019 by the governments of the UK and the ROI.
 
Not something you'll read in the right wing media.  I wonder why?

Didn't realise that NNK - I assume that doesn't cover lorries/vans/trade vehicles though...?

 
It does only covers people MM.  If Scotland gained independence AND joined the EU then Goods would be subject to the same cross border checks as they are between any third country, (which the UK is), and the EU.  However, if Scotland gained independence but did not become a member of the EU then border control for the movement of goods would be something that the UK and Scottish would have to negotiate and agree on.
 
Here's a link to the CTA....  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-travel-area-guidance

I think a lot of Scots would vote for independence if EU membership was guaranteed, but that's only my opinion. So the process and time lines would need to be drawn up and of course a probability scale of being accepted.

Thanks NNK.  My thoughts regarding Brexit impacting on independence still remain though.  I think Sydney makes a valid point above also. 

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #55 on May 10, 2021, 06:47:44 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
The irony of the Indyref case is that the SNP will trot out PRECISELY the lies that the Leave side pedalled in 2016. They will say that you can have a trade border between Scotland and the rest of the UK without affecting the Scottish economy. They will appeal to nationalist gut feeling and encourage people to reject expert analysis. And they will say that anyone who suggests Scotland cannot thrive outside its current trading relationship with its much bigger neighbour is belittling the ability and spirit of the Scots.

A bunch of shysters they are. Prepared to lie to their people about the costs of independence to sate their quasi-religious determination for a faux freedom.

Sprotyrover

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Re: Scottish Indyref 2
« Reply #56 on May 10, 2021, 10:25:24 pm by Sprotyrover »
The irony of the Indyref case is that the SNP will trot out PRECISELY the lies that the Leave side pedalled in 2016. They will say that you can have a trade border between Scotland and the rest of the UK without affecting the Scottish economy. They will appeal to nationalist gut feeling and encourage people to reject expert analysis. And they will say that anyone who suggests Scotland cannot thrive outside its current trading relationship with its much bigger neighbour is belittling the ability and spirit of the Scots.

A bunch of shysters they are. Prepared to lie to their people about the costs of independence to sate their quasi-religious determination for a faux freedom.
Well said!


 

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