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Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 426036 times)

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Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10770 on April 19, 2021, 06:03:40 pm by Bentley Bullet »
BST, as usual, you decided to back up one of your cronies on a technicality that wasn't really the point of the argument. The point of the argument was Sydney Rovers attitude towards people of this country who he despises if they don't vote the same way as him - Only he doesn't live here so he doesn't have a vote! Similarly, he doesn't pay tax in this country either, so I'll be f**ked if he's gonna dictate how much tax people of this country should pay towards other peoples pay rises.

That is not me saying I don't want to pay more tax for other peoples pay rises, before yu go down that road. It's purely a matter of principle that you got yourself involved in.



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selby

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10771 on April 19, 2021, 08:15:49 pm by selby »
  Billy, have you ever thought of writing to the Labour Lord Mayor of London about economics?

SydneyRover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10772 on April 20, 2021, 05:09:01 am by SydneyRover »
No BST. YOU changed the goalposts. YOU said "no, it isn't someone else's money." when it clearly would be someone else's money. I was meaning it wouldn't be HIS (Starmer's) money.

I brought Corbyn into it because his policy was relevant to my point, which was that should he have become PM, me and thee would have paid higher taxes to pay for such as NHS workers payrises.

Looks like you vote for a party and understand little of the economic dogma that they pour out bb.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10773 on April 20, 2021, 10:02:52 am by BillyStubbsTears »
BST, as usual, you decided to back up one of your cronies on a technicality that wasn't really the point of the argument. The point of the argument was Sydney Rovers attitude towards people of this country who he despises if they don't vote the same way as him - Only he doesn't live here so he doesn't have a vote! Similarly, he doesn't pay tax in this country either, so I'll be f**ked if he's gonna dictate how much tax people of this country should pay towards other peoples pay rises.

That is not me saying I don't want to pay more tax for other peoples pay rises, before yu go down that road. It's purely a matter of principle that you got yourself involved in.

I get it BB.

You haven't actually engaged with a word I've said on the issue we were talking about. You haven't addressed the point that Govt spending on pay rises for low paid workers would lift the whole economy (so that, even if you DID pay more tax, that would be outweighed by higher income - which would you prefer? 20% tax on a £5000 income or 50% tax on £10,000 income?).

Nope. Ignore all that. Just make it another one of your personal attacks.

I never learn...

https://mobile.twitter.com/donaldcclarke/status/1383590473399345153

« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 10:05:37 am by BillyStubbsTears »

bpoolrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10774 on April 20, 2021, 11:15:54 am by bpoolrover »
It would not always be as straight forward as that thou, quite a lot of low paid workers get some sort of help, universal credit or working family tax, you can give people all the pay rise you want if they get these benefits and it will make no difference as  it will be taken off them pound for pound or as good as

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10775 on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10776 on April 20, 2021, 12:28:47 pm by Bentley Bullet »
BST, as usual, you decided to back up one of your cronies on a technicality that wasn't really the point of the argument. The point of the argument was Sydney Rovers attitude towards people of this country who he despises if they don't vote the same way as him - Only he doesn't live here so he doesn't have a vote! Similarly, he doesn't pay tax in this country either, so I'll be f**ked if he's gonna dictate how much tax people of this country should pay towards other peoples pay rises.

That is not me saying I don't want to pay more tax for other peoples pay rises, before yu go down that road. It's purely a matter of principle that you got yourself involved in.

I get it BB.

You haven't actually engaged with a word I've said on the issue we were talking about. You haven't addressed the point that Govt spending on pay rises for low paid workers would lift the whole economy (so that, even if you DID pay more tax, that would be outweighed by higher income - which would you prefer? 20% tax on a £5000 income or 50% tax on £10,000 income?).

Nope. Ignore all that. Just make it another one of your personal attacks.

I never learn...

https://mobile.twitter.com/donaldcclarke/status/1383590473399345153



And there you go again changing the goalposts! You are now referring to the low paid when the subject was about NHS nurses and the like!

Other than that, I do agree with you in that you never learn.


bpoolrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10777 on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pm by bpoolrover »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

SydneyRover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10778 on April 20, 2021, 12:53:04 pm by SydneyRover »
There seems to be plenty of money around, you just have to know where to look is all.

''Spire Healthcare boss awarded bonus worth over £300,000 after NHS Covid revenue boost

The boss of a private hospital company has been awarded an annual bonus worth more than £300,000 after the business he leads benefited from an NHS contract worth £360m during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Spire Healthcare Group’s chief executive, Justin Ash, received a £1.2m pay package in 2020, up from £1m in 2019, and share options that have already soared in value, according to the company’s annual report, published this month.

The package included a base salary of £618,000 plus bonuses and other benefits worth almost £600,000. Ash has donated at least half of his base salary to charity over the last three years, Spire said, and took a temporary pay cut worth £30,000 during the first wave of the pandemic''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/19/spire-healthcare-boss-awarded-bonus-worth-over-300000-after-nhs-takeover

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10779 on April 20, 2021, 02:56:29 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10780 on April 20, 2021, 05:06:44 pm by Bentley Bullet »
What happens when some of them gamble, substance abuse, and/or piss their cheque up the wall? Will those greedy bas**rds who saved their cheques have to share their savings with those 'unfortunate' ones?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10781 on April 20, 2021, 05:26:46 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BB
What happens at the moment if people do that with their benefits? The idea is that the Universal Inco...


Actually, f**k it. What is the point?

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10782 on April 20, 2021, 05:29:54 pm by Bentley Bullet »
What does happen now BST? Come on clever one, educate me.

bpoolrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10783 on April 20, 2021, 05:56:14 pm by bpoolrover »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10784 on April 20, 2021, 06:41:06 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.

They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing.

Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that.

It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10785 on April 20, 2021, 07:05:55 pm by Bentley Bullet »
So the advice not to give people who are begging in shop doorways money because it only goes to feed their habit is wrong?

 If I knew a feasible answer I wouldn't be wasting my time on a third division off-topic football forum. But I do know that giving free money to work-shy layabouts,  gamblers, junkies and pissheads will only make them worse, and will result in others who were once willing to work becoming disillusioned with the system and joining them.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10786 on April 20, 2021, 11:27:54 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Yeah BB.

So, as I was saying, UBI makes no difference whatsoever to the situations you raised.

bpoolrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10787 on April 21, 2021, 12:54:19 am by bpoolrover »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.

They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing.

Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that.

It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.
I don’t know much about it, am I right in think you would get a one off payment each month/year and that’s it no other benefits?

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10788 on April 21, 2021, 06:48:21 am by big fat yorkshire pudding »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?

Axholme Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10789 on April 21, 2021, 09:27:32 am by Axholme Lion »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?

This is very true. Many will think what's the point?

Axholme Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10790 on April 21, 2021, 09:33:06 am by Axholme Lion »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.

They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing.

Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that.

It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.

Mark this day in you diary! BST and Axholme Lion are in total agreement on a subject! :lol:

John Hargreaves the founder of the Kibbo Kift was promoting this almost a century ago. A man well before his time.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10791 on April 21, 2021, 10:07:39 am by BillyStubbsTears »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?
There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10792 on April 21, 2021, 10:12:42 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.

They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing.

Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that.

It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.
I don’t know much about it, am I right in think you would get a one off payment each month/year and that’s it no other benefits?

That would be it in the purest form. Say every adult in the country gets £7-8k as a basic subsistence. Then anything you earn above that doesn't reduce that UBI payment. And no other benefits.

Will take a long time to get to that level, but it'll come at a lower level soon. Say £1000 per year with benefits reduced by the same amount. 

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10793 on April 21, 2021, 10:50:50 am by Bentley Bullet »
Isn't it happening to a certain extent now? Of course, it is obvious that with automation comes unemployment, and there's no point in automation if sales are down because fewer people can afford what is actually being automated. So a certain level of unemployment benefit is essential in order for the unemployed to afford them. But if UBI is the answer will it be even more financially advantageous over having a job than it sometimes is now?

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10794 on April 21, 2021, 11:21:25 am by big fat yorkshire pudding »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?
There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.

Clearly, but I'm talking proportionately whereas yours would likely be a set fee.  It's all well and good giving everyone 2k but that has to be non taxable or it gets reduced for those who are taxed thus not universal and the valid points on benefits too.  This by definition does then reduce the wages gap for some if it was to be taxed.

I also don't ever see politically the left wing accepting this going to a higher rate earner.

Axholme Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10795 on April 21, 2021, 11:49:11 am by Axholme Lion »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?
There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.

Clearly, but I'm talking proportionately whereas yours would likely be a set fee.  It's all well and good giving everyone 2k but that has to be non taxable or it gets reduced for those who are taxed thus not universal and the valid points on benefits too.  This by definition does then reduce the wages gap for some if it was to be taxed.

I also don't ever see politically the left wing accepting this going to a higher rate earner.

If they didn't it wouldn't be UNIVERSAL. I can't see why anyone wouldn't think it was a good idea.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10796 on April 21, 2021, 01:17:47 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.

However, where do you draw that line?  There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?
There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.

Clearly, but I'm talking proportionately whereas yours would likely be a set fee.  It's all well and good giving everyone 2k but that has to be non taxable or it gets reduced for those who are taxed thus not universal and the valid points on benefits too.  This by definition does then reduce the wages gap for some if it was to be taxed.

I also don't ever see politically the left wing accepting this going to a higher rate earner.

BFYP
Universality of benefits is a VERY left wing principle. The idea is that if everyone receives them, everyone has a stake in them. If only those who have slipped through the safety net receive them, as you see in here, you get people resenting benefits being given to shirkers and druggies.

That is why, for example, child benefit was brought in by a Labour Govt as a benefit to EVERY mother with children. It would have been much cheaper to target it only at mothers below some defined poverty line, but that would have also made it easier for future right wing Governments to say it was only going to scroungers and layabouts and set about cutting it (and of course, they made a start on that road in 2010 when they stopped CB going to families with a higher rate tax payer).

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10797 on April 21, 2021, 01:28:34 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
The principle of UBI is based on the idea that society has a responsibility to help those who fall on hard times.

We already have that principle because we have a system of benefits for people at the bottom of the scale. Yes, some of that is abused, but the vast majority isn't. The overwhelming majority of benefits go to people who have, through no fault of their own, lost their job, become ill or been unable to get a job that pays them enough to live beyond existence level.

The problem with benefits is that they do tend to reduce the incentive to make more of yourself. Because as you start to earn, you lose your benefit. So why bother? That's what leads to the vitriol we oftne see in here about the workshy and the scroungers.

UBI addresses this by saying the State will pay EVERYONE what is effectively a baseline benefit. It won't be taxed. it won't affect tax on your other earnings. and it won't be taken away from you as you start to work and earn. So it provides a safety net for those who genuinely cannot earn. But it doesn't provide a disincentive for those who can.

Of course it is massively expensive. If you give every adult in Britain £10k, that's about 20% of our GDP.

But think of the alternative. Over the next few decades, there is a revolution in automation and AI coming. Driving jobs will go with driverless cars. Warehouse jobs will go with robots. Ditto construction jobs. Why employ an accountant when AI systems will be able to do their job? Or lawyers when AI can understand and argue every point of the law far more correctly and efficiently?

Which raises the questions. What happens to to poor bas**rds whose jobs have vanished? And where is the money going that they used to take in wages?

The answer to the second question is "Into the pockets of the companies that run the AI and automated systems".

The answer to the first question is "They starve, unless society looks after them. By, for example, massive taxes on the Googles and Ubers and Apples which is used to fund UBI."

Axholme Lion

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10798 on April 21, 2021, 02:15:05 pm by Axholme Lion »
The principle of UBI is based on the idea that society has a responsibility to help those who fall on hard times.

We already have that principle because we have a system of benefits for people at the bottom of the scale. Yes, some of that is abused, but the vast majority isn't. The overwhelming majority of benefits go to people who have, through no fault of their own, lost their job, become ill or been unable to get a job that pays them enough to live beyond existence level.

The problem with benefits is that they do tend to reduce the incentive to make more of yourself. Because as you start to earn, you lose your benefit. So why bother? That's what leads to the vitriol we oftne see in here about the workshy and the scroungers.

UBI addresses this by saying the State will pay EVERYONE what is effectively a baseline benefit. It won't be taxed. it won't affect tax on your other earnings. and it won't be taken away from you as you start to work and earn. So it provides a safety net for those who genuinely cannot earn. But it doesn't provide a disincentive for those who can.

Of course it is massively expensive. If you give every adult in Britain £10k, that's about 20% of our GDP.

But think of the alternative. Over the next few decades, there is a revolution in automation and AI coming. Driving jobs will go with driverless cars. Warehouse jobs will go with robots. Ditto construction jobs. Why employ an accountant when AI systems will be able to do their job? Or lawyers when AI can understand and argue every point of the law far more correctly and efficiently?

Which raises the questions. What happens to to poor bas**rds whose jobs have vanished? And where is the money going that they used to take in wages?

The answer to the second question is "Into the pockets of the companies that run the AI and automated systems".

The answer to the first question is "They starve, unless society looks after them. By, for example, massive taxes on the Googles and Ubers and Apples which is used to fund UBI."

If UBI existed i would use the money to buy goods and pay tradesmen to help renovate my house. I would be paying tax on the goods and services and boosting the economy. I get my house done up, it keeps someone in a job and boosts the economy. Everyone is treat the same, what's not to like?

bpoolrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #10799 on April 21, 2021, 06:12:15 pm by bpoolrover »
Bpool

A sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.

Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.

Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)
Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)
Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)

None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also

Bpool

What is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
how much do you think that should be?

It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.

They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing.

Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that.

It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.
I don’t know much about it, am I right in think you would get a one off payment each month/year and that’s it no other benefits?

That would be it in the purest form. Say every adult in the country gets £7-8k as a basic subsistence. Then anything you earn above that doesn't reduce that UBI payment. And no other benefits.

Will take a long time to get to that level, but it'll come at a lower level soon. Say £1000 per year with benefits reduced by the same amount. 
in theory a great idea, but would homelessness not rise massively, there are many people who for what ever reason won’t work can’t work ect. Say was 8k that wouldn’t even cover most peoples rent, then what would happen?

 

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