Coronavirus

[bpoolrover]

At the start of this pandemic sage who the government followed didn't really advise a lockdown until something like March 16th so that was clearly a error, Indy sage would still be in a lockdown now which would be a error, following the science is not always that easy

[bpoolrover]

I'm just going to be rude today just like you are a lot of the time when you insult people's intelligence bp.

lol but still you don't answer like you never do syd but always demand people answer you or you insult them, and yes I might be thick but at least I try and think for myself and answer even if I'm wrong

[SydneyRover]

I tell you what bp, when you have offered your expert opinion I will offer mine, how's that?

[SydneyRover]

What would you do now Sydney and for the coming months?

That wasn't the question pud, you tell me, I was saying that johnson was glacially slow to act would you like to comment on that?

You didn't ask me a question I asked you one? It's easy to say you wouldn't do something afterwards but what would you do for the rest of this year?

I'd say include India in the red zone along with Pakistan and Bangladesh and then take it from there pud, what would you do.

I would have followed the science followed the findings from Cygnus, locked down earlier at each crisis point until the vaccine rollout was completed as far as possible and wouldn't have freedom days nor eat out to get covid all that stuff, then maybe more mums, dads, grandparents, friends and neighbours would be still alive today and not so many people would have long covid. I would have allowed the purpose built entity to source all the ppe instead of giving the contracts to my chums and then maybe 600 medical stall would not have died pud. That's what I would have done, if you want to know what happens next ask those that supported johnson and those that still do, now we back at 100 deaths a day.

Here you go bp, I've told you what I'd do on a whole heap of things, go through them and tell what you would have done.

[SydneyRover]

Haven't done it yet bp? you're not on your own there aye? life isn't as difficult as you make it out to be, when you are employed to make decisions you make the decision that favours your employer (not yourself or your mates) unless ethical considerations get in the way and then you have to make a decision about your own future.

All the way through this covid journey johnson has been conflicted about whom should be the beneficiary of his decisions, himself, his mates or his party, the public have come a very poor fourth most of the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What would you do now Sydney and for the coming months?

That wasn't the question pud, you tell me, I was saying that johnson was glacially slow to act would you like to comment on that?

You didn't ask me a question I asked you one? It's easy to say you wouldn't do something afterwards but what would you do for the rest of this year?

I'd say include India in the red zone along with Pakistan and Bangladesh and then take it from there pud, what would you do.

I would have followed the science followed the findings from Cygnus, locked down earlier at each crisis point until the vaccine rollout was completed as far as possible and wouldn't have freedom days nor eat out to get covid all that stuff, then maybe more mums, dads, grandparents, friends and neighbours would be still alive today and not so many people would have long covid. I would have allowed the purpose built entity to source all the ppe instead of giving the contracts to my chums and then maybe 600 medical stall would not have died pud. That's what I would have done, if you want to know what happens next ask those that supported johnson and those that still do, now we back at 100 deaths a day.

whose science would you have followed sage? Or Indy sage?

When it really mattered, last Autumn, the Govt followed neither. Johnson was told by both we should lockdown. He said publicly it would be madness to have another lockdown and berated Labour for calling for one.

Of course, not long afterwards we DID lockdown. Twice. But by then the virus was back out of control and another 100,000 died even with half a year of lockdown.

I find it astonishing that that level of incompetence is glossed over by half the population.

[River Don]

In my experience there are without doubt educated idiots. Some can I suppose put their mind to learning facts and pass exams but nevertheless can't apply themselves very well to the life beyond.

And there are plenty of clever people who have never passed exams or in many cases never had the opportunity to learn and pass exams.

But I also think the cleverest people are always very well educated and the thickest completely uneducated.

The world isn't clear cut. Political theories aren't perfect. Even scientific theories are often wrong and constantly being refined. Life isn't perfect and I think very often we aren't very good at dealing with that. We like certainty but usually there isn't any.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Still astonishing how Trump support and anti-vax attitudes go hand in hand in America.


Meanwhile, the Trump supporting Southern states like Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida and Alabama are seeing daily cases and in some cases, deaths per capita head towards or overtake the worst we saw last winter.

Just madness. And so unnecessary.

There's a proper disaster developing in the Deep South.

Louisiana have less than half the population vaccinated but they've opened right up. They have 1/15th of our population but today they have recorded 140 COVID deaths. That would be equivalent to over 2000 in a day here. And the new cases are still rising so the deaths will get worse. Absolutely insane.

[River Don]

Those in the deep South and mid west will be the religious nuts who they have been showing on the news.

Certain God is going to see them right and vacinnation is the work of the devil.

[River Don]

I wonder if there are any Covid figures available for Afghanistan?

Facing a takeover by religious zealots, a collapsing economy, few vaccinated, anyone with half a brain desperately scrambling to get away or hiding in desperation. The real possibility of starvation on the horizon.

There's a massive catastrophe brewing.

[SydneyRover]

In my experience there are without doubt educated idiots. Some can I suppose put their mind to learning facts and pass exams but nevertheless can't apply themselves very well to the life beyond.

And there are plenty of clever people who have never passed exams or in many cases never had the opportunity to learn and pass exams.

But I also think the cleverest people are always very well educated and the thickest completely uneducated.

The world isn't clear cut. Political theories aren't perfect. Even scientific theories are often wrong and constantly being refined. Life isn't perfect and I think very often we aren't very good at dealing with that. We like certainty but usually there isn't any.

The world isn't clear cut RD but I want a say and figure even though I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed by any means I can ask  questions and figure out why things are done the way they are and from that point I can maybe have influence. I continually ask questions of others if their motives are not clear. I have problems if people want to call you out but won't tell you where they stand themselves or pretend to be honest brokers. I'm a numbers man really, not in the sense of being a stat person but in figuring why and where etc, looking at what people have said and done and then I can better predict the odds of whether they are genuine and mean what they say. I don't find that very difficult. I always give people a couple of chances.

[dickos1]

Sydney you’ve been asked what would you do now moving forward but you can’t answer.
You’ll wait until Christmas and be back on here saying the government should’ve done this and that. You’ve got nothing to add other than looking back in hindsight.
Delta will get all around the world, regardless whether that’s now, 6 months ago or a year in the future.
Closing the borders would’ve just delayed the inevitable, borders can’t be closed forever, getting it in the U.K. early May have done us a favour.

[SydneyRover]

Blackpool, you didn’t suggest we close our borders be closed until the virus has gone did you?

Yep, spot on there hound if we'd had closed the borders to those coming from India it could have prevented thousands getting delta virus, too slow.

Nonsense
The delta variant is popping up everywhere now, we had it early doors but unless you’re implying countries should keep the borders closed for ever, then it’s not the solution.
As soon as New Zealand, Australia etc relax their borders they’re going to go the same way as we did.
All they’re doing is delaying the inevitable

Look at America, everybody lauded them for not having much of the delta at the beginning now it’s spreading like wildfire 115k new cases yesterday and ober 400 deaths

Oh dickos, ask yourself why we had it early doors, do you reckon it was anything to with the Indian community returning to the Manchester area and surrounds. Where were the biggest case loads very early doors?

While you're searching your memory banks have a look for where I suggested locking down forever, get yourself another straight-man.

Sydney you’ve been asked what would you do now moving forward but you can’t answer.
You’ll wait until Christmas and be back on here saying the government should’ve done this and that. You’ve got nothing to add other than looking back in hindsight.
Delta will get all around the world, regardless whether that’s now, 6 months ago or a year in the future.
Closing the borders would’ve just delayed the inevitable, borders can’t be closed forever, getting it in the U.K. early May have done us a favour.

And above is my reply, showing you being totally wrong so I don't think you are in a to ask me anything until you explain how you got that so arse about dickos, did I miss your reply or your apology, I don't think so aye dickos.

So do yourself a favour and stop reading the express or the tele hehe.

[dickos1]

What?
I’ve never suggested I disagree we got it early doors, I’m saying if we’d closed borders immediately we wouldn’t have kept them closed forever so delta would’ve got in at a later date as is proving to be the case around the world right now.
So getting it in earlier May turn out to be not such a bad thing

[SydneyRover]

Keeping the virus out while getting high numbers vaccinated is the name of the game dickos, no matter how you read or evaluate, explain why India wasn't on the Red List and then I could possible understand your thinking on this.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

You seem a little obsessed with the past and India, but ignoring the question about the future?

[SydneyRover]

You seem a little obsessed with the past and India, but ignoring the question about the future?

That quite easy as you seem to be obsessed about what I think pud, get me the full findings from Cygnus and the latest advice from either or both Sage groups and a few health experts and I'll see what I can do. The real answer of course is to get that moron out of number 10 and get rid of all the cronies he hired.

[SydneyRover]

What?
I’ve never suggested I disagree we got it early doors, I’m saying if we’d closed borders immediately we wouldn’t have kept them closed forever so delta would’ve got in at a later date as is proving to be the case around the world right now.
So getting it in earlier May turn out to be not such a bad thing

Keeping the virus out while getting high numbers vaccinated is the name of the game dickos, no matter how you read or evaluate, explain why India wasn't on the Red List and then I could possible understand your thinking on this.

[/b]

Doesn't look like you wish to discuss this dickos, why was India when it had more covid cases than it's immediate neighbour wasn't on the same Red LIst as both of it's immediate neighbours.

I'll help you out here dickos, it's political nothing to do with the health of the British people. If it was better as you suggest to get more people infected early door why was there a list at all.

Further, as you appear think 100 deaths a day is not a bad thing apparently, when should restrictions be tightened at 120-150-200 a day, what is acceptable in your world?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bizarre discussion.

We've driven the bus off a cliff. But let's not criticise the driver. Criticise the people who said the driver was incompetent because they don't know how to get the passengers out of the wreckage.

[Axholme Lion]

So in answer to my question, bar preventing a few other bits of travel would you do anything else?  You've mainly talked past not future.

A bit like Keir Starmer. He's good at pointing out errors others make in hindsight but has no ideas of his own.

Just ridiculous how this "Captain Hindsight" concept has taken hold. It shows how easily some folk can be led if they aren't prepared to engage their own brains.

For the record, here's a quick list off the top of my head of things that Starmer and the Labour party was saying we should do AT THE TIME that the Govt was f**king up on its decisions.

1) April 2021 - Restrict travel from India
2) December 2020 - Toughen up regulations over Xmas
3) November 2020 - Impose stricter restrictions than the Tier system.
4) October 2020 - Bring in sharp lockdown to slow down the outbreak.

On 2, Johnson criticised Starmer AT THE TIME for wanting to "cancel Xmas". Instead we delayed toughening restrictions and the number of cases and deaths (and the length of the inevitable lockdown when it finally did come) increased threefold.

On 4, the Tories were putting out adverts throughout October saying that Labour was the party who wanted lockdowns. The eventually they had to impose a lockdown. And then Johnson started calling Starmer "Captain Hindsight" for only criticising Govt action after the event.

All of what I have said above is established fact. You can inform yourself about it in 5 mins if you really want to. But I don't think you really want to, do you?

You are being treated like a brainless idiot by this "Hindsight" line. They assume you are too thick to realise you're being mislead.

As long as i'm not as thick as you are arrogant. Very condescending aren't you?

[dickos1]

Bizarre discussion.

We've driven the bus off a cliff. But let's not criticise the driver. Criticise the people who said the driver was incompetent because they don't know how to get the passengers out of the wreckage.

It’s only bizarre if you want to keep pedalling the same argument.
And it’s not as bizarre as your analogy.
You’re trying to come to conclusions halfway through again,
Delta will make it’s why around the world regardless of whether a country has closed its borders or not, Once they open they’ll get it.

[dickos1]

What?
I’ve never suggested I disagree we got it early doors, I’m saying if we’d closed borders immediately we wouldn’t have kept them closed forever so delta would’ve got in at a later date as is proving to be the case around the world right now.
So getting it in earlier May turn out to be not such a bad thing

Keeping the virus out while getting high numbers vaccinated is the name of the game dickos, no matter how you read or evaluate, explain why India wasn't on the Red List and then I could possible understand your thinking on this.

[/b]

Doesn't look like you wish to discuss this dickos, why was India when it had more covid cases than it's immediate neighbour wasn't on the same Red LIst as both of it's immediate neighbours.

I'll help you out here dickos, it's political nothing to do with the health of the British people. If it was better as you suggest to get more people infected early door why was there a list at all.

Further, as you appear think 100 deaths a day is not a bad thing apparently, when should restrictions be tightened at 120-150-200 a day, what is acceptable in your world?

Unfortunately we’re going to have to live with deaths from this virus for the rest of our lives.
Countries such as yours think they can live without the virus it won’t happen.

Sorry for not being at your beck n call I’m on my lounger in Greece, getting on with my life

[SydneyRover]

I'm pleased we have finally gotten to what really matter to you dickos, enjoy yourself.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bizarre discussion.

We've driven the bus off a cliff. But let's not criticise the driver. Criticise the people who said the driver was incompetent because they don't know how to get the passengers out of the wreckage.

It’s only bizarre if you want to keep pedalling the same argument.
And it’s not as bizarre as your analogy.
You’re trying to come to conclusions halfway through again,
Delta will make it’s why around the world regardless of whether a country has closed its borders or not, Once they open they’ll get it.

Dickos
Yes Delta will make its way around the world. But you are missing a vital point. Herd Immunity through vaccination. And that makes all the difference. But you need to understand how HI works to realise why we have f**ked up.

HI works by making it harder for the virus to spread. As more and more people are resistant to the virus, eventually R drops below 1 and the number of new cases starts to decline. HI doesn't act as a switch. It's a long process. But what really matters then is how bad your outbreak is when the decline starts. If you have 60000 cases per day as R goes below 1, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer to get cases down to manageable levels than if you have 6000. Which is why Germany is in a far better position to handle Delta than we are. Because they took sensible precautions to keep the numbers low while they ramped up vaccination to approach HI.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So in answer to my question, bar preventing a few other bits of travel would you do anything else?  You've mainly talked past not future.

A bit like Keir Starmer. He's good at pointing out errors others make in hindsight but has no ideas of his own.

Just ridiculous how this "Captain Hindsight" concept has taken hold. It shows how easily some folk can be led if they aren't prepared to engage their own brains.

For the record, here's a quick list off the top of my head of things that Starmer and the Labour party was saying we should do AT THE TIME that the Govt was f**king up on its decisions.

1) April 2021 - Restrict travel from India
2) December 2020 - Toughen up regulations over Xmas
3) November 2020 - Impose stricter restrictions than the Tier system.
4) October 2020 - Bring in sharp lockdown to slow down the outbreak.

On 2, Johnson criticised Starmer AT THE TIME for wanting to "cancel Xmas". Instead we delayed toughening restrictions and the number of cases and deaths (and the length of the inevitable lockdown when it finally did come) increased threefold.

On 4, the Tories were putting out adverts throughout October saying that Labour was the party who wanted lockdowns. The eventually they had to impose a lockdown. And then Johnson started calling Starmer "Captain Hindsight" for only criticising Govt action after the event.

All of what I have said above is established fact. You can inform yourself about it in 5 mins if you really want to. But I don't think you really want to, do you?

You are being treated like a brainless idiot by this "Hindsight" line. They assume you are too thick to realise you're being mislead.

As long as i'm not as thick as you are arrogant. Very condescending aren't you?

AL
Read what I wrote. I didn't call you thick. I said Johnson thinks you are thick. He thinks he can peddle lies to you which you could check yourself to be lies. But he thinks you won't do that. You'll just swallow the lie.

[drfchound]

So in answer to my question, bar preventing a few other bits of travel would you do anything else?  You've mainly talked past not future.

A bit like Keir Starmer. He's good at pointing out errors others make in hindsight but has no ideas of his own.

Just ridiculous how this "Captain Hindsight" concept has taken hold. It shows how easily some folk can be led if they aren't prepared to engage their own brains.

For the record, here's a quick list off the top of my head of things that Starmer and the Labour party was saying we should do AT THE TIME that the Govt was f**king up on its decisions.

1) April 2021 - Restrict travel from India
2) December 2020 - Toughen up regulations over Xmas
3) November 2020 - Impose stricter restrictions than the Tier system.
4) October 2020 - Bring in sharp lockdown to slow down the outbreak.

On 2, Johnson criticised Starmer AT THE TIME for wanting to "cancel Xmas". Instead we delayed toughening restrictions and the number of cases and deaths (and the length of the inevitable lockdown when it finally did come) increased threefold.

On 4, the Tories were putting out adverts throughout October saying that Labour was the party who wanted lockdowns. The eventually they had to impose a lockdown. And then Johnson started calling Starmer "Captain Hindsight" for only criticising Govt action after the event.

All of what I have said above is established fact. You can inform yourself about it in 5 mins if you really want to. But I don't think you really want to, do you?

You are being treated like a brainless idiot by this "Hindsight" line. They assume you are too thick to realise you're being mislead.

As long as i'm not as thick as you are arrogant. Very condescending aren't you?

AL
Read what I wrote. I[/] didn't call you thick. I said Johnson thinks you are thick. He thinks he can peddle lies to you which you could check yourself to be lies. But he thinks you won't do that. You'll just swallow the lie.

Axholme didn’t say that you did call him thick.
Perhaps you should have read what HE wrote.

[dickos1]

Bizarre discussion.

We've driven the bus off a cliff. But let's not criticise the driver. Criticise the people who said the driver was incompetent because they don't know how to get the passengers out of the wreckage.

It’s only bizarre if you want to keep pedalling the same argument.
And it’s not as bizarre as your analogy.
You’re trying to come to conclusions halfway through again,
Delta will make it’s why around the world regardless of whether a country has closed its borders or not, Once they open they’ll get it.

Dickos
Yes Delta will make its way around the world. But you are missing a vital point. Herd Immunity through vaccination. And that makes all the difference. But you need to understand how HI works to realise why we have f**ked up.

HI works by making it harder for the virus to spread. As more and more people are resistant to the virus, eventually R drops below 1 and the number of new cases starts to decline. HI doesn't act as a switch. It's a long process. But what really matters then is how bad your outbreak is when the decline starts. If you have 60000 cases per day as R goes below 1, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer to get cases down to manageable levels than if you have 6000. Which is why Germany is in a far better position to handle Delta than we are. Because they took sensible precautions to keep the numbers low while they ramped up vaccination to approach HI.

Let’s wait and see in 6 months a years time, as to which countries coped best with this and other variants.
Too early to start deciding now

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dickos
We hear that line regularly from people who want to deflect criticism from the Govt. Think about what it actually means if you interpret it. "Other countries might be appear to be doing better than us right now. But let's not learn from them and see if they have policies which are working better than ours. If we wait long enough, they might have problems too and then we won't look so bad."

In the specific case of Germany, they currently have a per capita COVID death toll about half ours. Which suggests that they have indeed managed things WAY better than we have, and that there may be lessons for us. What you are saying is "Just wait 6 months. Germany might have 70,000 deaths more than we have over that period and then they'd be as bad as us. And there'd have been nothing for us to learn from them."

[Sprotyrover]

Dickos
We hear that line regularly from people who want to deflect criticism from the Govt. Think about what it actually means if you interpret it. "Other countries might be appear to be doing better than us right now. But let's not learn from them and see if they have policies which are working better than ours. If we wait long enough, they might have problems too and then we won't look so bad."

In the specific case of Germany, they currently have a per capita COVID death toll about half ours. Which suggests that they have indeed managed things WAY better than we have, and that there may be lessons for us. What you are saying is "Just wait 6 months. Germany might have 70,000 deaths more than we have over that period and then they'd be as bad as us. And there'd have been nothing for us to learn from them."
[/quote
The only reason Germany has done better than us is because they don’t have a section of the Population that has roots in India and they did not have that section tooing  and froing on extended family visits and merrily infecting us with Type D.

[wilts rover]

Sweden went for herd immunity - how did that work out?