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Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 861136 times)

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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6030 on July 05, 2020, 11:36:44 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
What we should remember is this is a long term thing.  So far the strategy health wise to lock down would be correct. What the correct outcome health and economy wise will be in the long term won't be known for years.

BFYP. This reminds me of discussions we had at the time that Austerity was being implemented.

Given that there's barely an economist in the worl who now thinks Austerity was a sensible economic policy, do you now accept, with hindsight, that those who said at the time that Austerity would lead to the worst decade of economic performance in living memory were right?



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wilts rover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6031 on July 06, 2020, 06:07:34 pm by wilts rover »
It was good to hear the government give a bit more clarity to the their more recent advice on the radio this morning. Worth a listen if you missed it and how now can anyone doubt that they know exactly what they are doing:

'There are two things we do: First of all, we mitigate the risk, but ultimately, even when you mitigate risk by having- not having social distancing, that increases significantly the risk of social distancing and we’re simply not there yet'

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1280043551108333570

Not Now Kato

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6032 on July 06, 2020, 07:47:14 pm by Not Now Kato »
According to Johnson, it's all the fault of the care homes....
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-care-home-death-toll-uk-update-a9604426.html?fbclid=IwAR3k60TzNCJEDnHPhn6I-pfMjq-v_lImLnS7M___I65KpVBOsMI-xKkeGz8
 
Didn't Matt Hancock state that he and the government had “thrown a protective ring around care homes” from the start of the outbreak?  Perhaps they should be talking to each other to get their act straight!

Filo

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6033 on July 06, 2020, 07:54:18 pm by Filo »
The death figure today is 16 deaths, it’s still coming down slowly

Donnywolf

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6034 on July 06, 2020, 07:55:54 pm by Donnywolf »
According to Johnson, it's all the fault of the care homes....
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-care-home-death-toll-uk-update-a9604426.html?fbclid=IwAR3k60TzNCJEDnHPhn6I-pfMjq-v_lImLnS7M___I65KpVBOsMI-xKkeGz8
 
Didn't Matt Hancock state that he and the government had “thrown a protective ring around care homes” from the start of the outbreak?  Perhaps they should be talking to each other to get their act straight!

.. ah but when "grilled" by Andrew Marr Han-cog stated that they did have a protective ring round Care Homes

Marr said but you just discharged them all from Hospital without tests. Han-cog replied well in some cases yes but (imagine a fanfare here do do do doooo) we knew nothing about people who may be asympomatic !

So thats another way of trying to wriggle out of that "charge"
Modify message

wilts rover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6035 on July 06, 2020, 08:55:43 pm by wilts rover »
According to Johnson, it's all the fault of the care homes....
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-care-home-death-toll-uk-update-a9604426.html?fbclid=IwAR3k60TzNCJEDnHPhn6I-pfMjq-v_lImLnS7M___I65KpVBOsMI-xKkeGz8
 
Didn't Matt Hancock state that he and the government had “thrown a protective ring around care homes” from the start of the outbreak?  Perhaps they should be talking to each other to get their act straight!

Love the quote at the bottom.

In the video Johnson says care homes didn't follow procedures in the way they should

Later, Downing Street insisted the prime minister had not blamed care homes for what happened.

Really!

ravenrover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6036 on July 06, 2020, 09:43:39 pm by ravenrover »
The death figure today is 16 deaths, it’s still coming down slowly
Wait for Tuesday and Wednesday

SydneyRover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6037 on July 06, 2020, 10:57:04 pm by SydneyRover »
According to Johnson, it's all the fault of the care homes....
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-care-home-death-toll-uk-update-a9604426.html?fbclid=IwAR3k60TzNCJEDnHPhn6I-pfMjq-v_lImLnS7M___I65KpVBOsMI-xKkeGz8
 
Didn't Matt Hancock state that he and the government had “thrown a protective ring around care homes” from the start of the outbreak?  Perhaps they should be talking to each other to get their act straight!

Love the quote at the bottom.

In the video Johnson says care homes didn't follow procedures in the way they should

Later, Downing Street insisted the prime minister had not blamed care homes for what happened.

Really!

Johnson has enrolled his whole government including himself on a Conscious bias blame course after a study shows that they have blamed everyone else for everything the government has f@cked up  :)

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6038 on July 06, 2020, 11:17:08 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I said right at the start of this crisis that one huge effect would be to move the economic debate much further towards the Left.

This is a Tory think tank saying things that were called Marxist when Corbyn and McDonnell said them a year ago.

https://www.ukonward.com/bounceback/

Dropping the concentration on debt.
Wealth taxes.
Big central investment funds.

All core Labour policies.

Someone said back in March that just as everyone suddenly believes in God on a sinking ship, so everyone suddenly becomes a socialist in a crisis. The whole "Govt is bad and taxes and Govt spending is worse" mantra gets ripped up when the chips are down.

New world folks.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 11:24:32 pm by BillyStubbsTears »

River Don

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6039 on July 06, 2020, 11:38:21 pm by River Don »
Just heard Damien Green explain things on Newsnight.

Different times call for different measures. Austerity was appropriate in 2010 because the country was in a massive financial hole and that's what was required.

Now build, build, build is an appropriate response. (To what is a much bigger financial hole but nobody asked him what was different this time around).

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6040 on July 07, 2020, 12:43:53 am by BillyStubbsTears »
RD.

Thing is though, Austerity absolutely wasn't the right approach in 2010. We've known since the 1930s that if you cut Govt spending to try to balance the books when the private sector is  down on its uppers, it is guaranteed to fail.

That is precisely what happened.

We extended the slump for three years.

We never did balance the books. [1]

We saw the worst recovery from recession since the South Sea Bubble era.

We saw the worst decade for wage growth since the Napoleonic Wars.

All those points above are facts. Established facts. They were predicted in 2010 by people who understood the economics. But they were ignored by the Tory Govt, who used the Debt as a tool to win the political argument. They won the political argument because it sounds sensible to say that if the Govt has a large debt, the Govt must cut its spending. Because that is what each of us would do as individual households. That's why Cameron and Osborne talked about us having maxed the country's credit card. And why so many people said "Yes! So Govt has to cut back."

But Govts aren't like households. Or individual companies. In a recession, households and companies cut their spending because they are trying to protect themselves in the slump. Textbook economics says that Govts have to borrow heavily and keep the economy going until households and companies regain their confidence and pick up the reins. THEN Govt can start to cut back and balance the books.

Ignoring that most fundamental aspect of economics in 2010 was criminal. And the most disgusting thing was that Cameron knew it. He got a first class degree from Oxford in Politics, Philosophy and Economics. He would have had the textbook economics drilled into him. And he chose to ignore it, because it gave him a political advantage.

A t**t beyond description.

[1] In 2010, Osborne said Austerity would allow us to balance the books by 2015. We didn't of course, because cutting Govt spending depressed the economy which reduced tax income which meant we had to carry on borrowing.

So, in 2105, he said more Austerity would mean we would balance the books by 2019.

And we didn't of course, for the reasons set out above.

And then, Austerity and the simmering anger it produced, of people working harder and not seeing their pay packets increase, led directly to the Brexit vote. Which f**ked the economy still further.

So that, pre-COVID, the Treasury was saying we would balance the books by 2024.

But because our economy is still needing supporting by Govt borrowing, the impact of COVID is particularly hard on us. And now that Tory think tank is saying the bleeding obvious. That we must drop the 2024 target and basically say, what will be will be on the debt.

Just stop and reflect on that. Osborne said it would take us 5 years to sort out the deficit on 2010. Because of the boneheadedly stupid economics of Austerity, we are probably still not going to have balanced books by 2030.

And STILL folk say Austerity was right in 2010...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 12:49:58 am by BillyStubbsTears »

Donnywolf

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6041 on July 07, 2020, 05:29:21 am by Donnywolf »
According to Johnson, it's all the fault of the care homes....
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-coronavirus-care-home-death-toll-uk-update-a9604426.html?fbclid=IwAR3k60TzNCJEDnHPhn6I-pfMjq-v_lImLnS7M___I65KpVBOsMI-xKkeGz8
 
Didn't Matt Hancock state that he and the government had “thrown a protective ring around care homes” from the start of the outbreak?  Perhaps they should be talking to each other to get their act straight!

Love the quote at the bottom.

In the video Johnson says care homes didn't follow procedures in the way they should

Later, Downing Street insisted the prime minister had not blamed care homes for what happened.

Really!

Does the saying "lost their moral compass" mean that Johnson is the lies of John O Groats to the Lands End of truth


IDM

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6042 on July 07, 2020, 09:00:55 am by IDM »
Blaming the care homes now..

But if they didn’t realise how asymptomatic spreading would work, then strictly speaking that is no ones fault, least of all the care homes.?

As for not knowing about asymptomatic spreading, I’m sorry that’s b*llocks.  Many diseases are “carried” by people who don’t get ill, and this must have been part of the pandemic modelling exercises.?

They may not know the extent nor voracity of asymptomatic spreading, but surely when you see what’s going on in the rest of Europe it ain’t rocket science to assume the worst and react accordingly, initially at first.?

And in the middle of March our PMs advice was to wash hands more often and that over 70s shouldn’t go on cruises.!!!

I distinctly remember being at work and discussing with my colleagues how incredulous it was that other countries were closing down left right and centre whilst ours was doing nothing.  I referred particularly to France and Germany, as I had (at that time) impending business trips to both countries which of course were subsequently cancelled.

As a company we had been preparing to facilitate home working since the beginning of March, and this was implemented by the 16th.  So those discussions in our office were at least one week before lockdown more realistically at least two weeks.

So if a small office in a provincial town can be discussing these issues, seeing what was happening in the rest of the world, why the hell was our advice only to wash hands and not send the elderly on big boats.? 

Donnywolf

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6043 on July 07, 2020, 09:39:07 am by Donnywolf »
From IDM just above

As for not knowing about asymptomatic spreading, I’m sorry that’s b*llocks.  Many diseases are “carried” by people who don’t get ill, and this must have been part of the pandemic modelling exercises.?

They may not know the extent nor voracity of asymptomatic spreading, but surely when you see what’s going on in the rest of Europe it ain’t rocket science to assume the worst and react accordingly, initially at first.?



Totally agree but Han-cog did the politicians rider statement (covering a**e_ - as in we didnt relalise "the full extent of it at the time" (asymptomatism) if I have not just made that up

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6044 on July 07, 2020, 10:34:40 am by BillyStubbsTears »
This is the way yesterday went. And it is an entirely deliberate and cynical brand of politics.

Johnson said that some care homes hadn't followed procedures as well as they should have.

Later on, his office issued a press release saying he meant that no one knew back in March what the correct procedures were, so he wasn't blaming the care homes.

And this is how it works.

1) Get the headline quote out. Doesn't matter if it is factually correct or not. Just dominate the news and set the agenda the way you want it. In this case, the agenda is to plant the idea in the minds of the busy or gullible that it's not Govt's fault that we have the worst number of deaths in Europe. It's the care homes' fault.

2. That's the main job done. You have got the sound bite out and the people you are aiming that at will see it fleetingly on news headlines and absorb it almost subconsciously. "Govt not to blame. Care homes to blame."

3) But there's a problem. People who's job it is to hold you to account know this is utter dogshite, and will try to push back against it.

4) So your office, quietly, puts out a "corrective" statement. Then when people accuse Johnson of spouting lying dogshite, they can say, "no it was just a slip of the tongue. We clarified what he meant to say." And they have that on the record. But the people they are wanting to convince will not see that clarification. It was released at 10pm last night and barely mentioned in the news last night.

This is a very cynical way of doing politics. It rides roughshod over truth. It treats his supporters as too thick/busy/committed to realise or care how they are being treated. But unfortunately it seems to work.


big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6046 on July 07, 2020, 01:30:47 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
It's really not a good choice of strategy.  Clearly he will factually be right there will be some that have frankly not followed the advice, that happens.  But widely?  I'd be very surprised and it's just a really poor choice of political strategy, why even raise it at all? 

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6047 on July 07, 2020, 01:32:20 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Meanwhile, here's an indication of the consequences of us locking down two weeks late compared to Germany.

https://mobile.twitter.com/samueltombs/status/1280068634614935552

It's a frighteningly long way back from here. And the example of America shows what happens if we are re-opening too early.

SydneyRover

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6048 on July 07, 2020, 01:34:58 pm by SydneyRover »
It's really not a good choice of strategy.  Clearly he will factually be right there will be some that have frankly not followed the advice, that happens.  But widely?  I'd be very surprised and it's just a really poor choice of political strategy, why even raise it at all?

''Clearly he will be factually right ........... '' but only by accident bfyp he's too lazy to even bother to ask and too dishonest to admit he didn't.

River Don

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6049 on July 07, 2020, 01:42:15 pm by River Don »
BST I was just amused to see Green try and justify the different approach, giving no reasons behind either decision. It was just the appropriate thing to do, because.

Shame nobody tried to ask him for a more detailed explanation.

This time around, I think we will find the government talking big but delivering much less in reality. I wouldn't mind the promisied £5,000 towards some new triple glazing but I doubt I will qualify for much of a discount when it  comes to it.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6050 on July 07, 2020, 01:42:44 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BFYP

He raises it because of the reasons I gave above.

Much of his support is based, not on a rational critique of what he says. If it was, he wouldn't get a job running a chuck wagon.

What he does is to rely on people who don't think too deeply, and he plants soundbites in their heads.

Take back control
Get Brexit done.
Jobs, jobs, jobs.

This one is the same.

Not my fault.
Care homes' fault.

This isn't a mistake. It is precisely how he operates. You must realise that he had absolutely zero regard for what the truth is in any given situation. He simply says whatever he needs to say to make the impression he wants to make. And he relies on his supporters being too thick, or detached, or partisan to care.

IDM

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6051 on July 07, 2020, 01:51:24 pm by IDM »
Hope Starmer hammers him at PMQs tomorrow..

Ldr

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6052 on July 07, 2020, 02:08:36 pm by Ldr »
Dear world

People are human
Mistakes get made
Hindsight wins all arguments
Shit happens
Deal with it and enjoy your lives

IDM

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6053 on July 07, 2020, 02:39:42 pm by IDM »
Dear Ldr

Mistakes get made - agreed
People in authority making policy make mistakes due to an honest lack of understanding or information - I can accept that.
People in authority subsequently blaming others for not following (unknown) procedures - that is crass stupidity

This is nothing to do with hindsight, it’s political deflection.

It was deliberate as well.  If he had just said “there were problems with procedures in some care homes, but to be frank no one really knew what those procedures should have been at that time, so the care homes and their dedicated staff are not to blame, no one is, but we must learn from this.”

Now that would have been far far better don’t you think.?

And you wonder why folks are so anti-government.?

Oh and by the way, please explain how exactly those thousands of (extra) people who died because of those mistakes, and their families, are supposed to deal with it and enjoy their lives.?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:23:56 pm by IDM »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6054 on July 07, 2020, 03:06:35 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Dear world

People are human
Mistakes get made
Hindsight wins all arguments
Shit happens
Deal with it and enjoy your lives

The "La-La I'm not listening" approach to political engagement.

No-one must ever be held to account for anything.

Ldr

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6055 on July 07, 2020, 03:35:46 pm by Ldr »
Dear world

People are human
Mistakes get made
Hindsight wins all arguments
Shit happens
Deal with it and enjoy your lives

The "La-La I'm not listening" approach to political engagement.

No-one must ever be held to account for anything.

You bite every time mate 😉

IDM

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6056 on July 07, 2020, 03:40:38 pm by IDM »
It’s not funny ldr.

People have died, thousands of them, and regardless of whether any mistakes were made honestly or not, it’s not a laughing matter and doesn’t warrant “fishing”.

I can only speak for myself but I welcome opinions which differ from mine, especially where there’s reasoning, and maybe I’m overreacting but this really isn’t funny at all.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:49:47 pm by IDM »

Ldr

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6057 on July 07, 2020, 04:04:18 pm by Ldr »
Appreciated IDM, just a bit dissolutioned that a forum populated by Yorkshiremen has drifted so far from the stoic deal with what life throws at you to a bunch of whining little girls. Humour is how a deal with things, you are different, no two ppl are the same

IDM

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6058 on July 07, 2020, 04:08:36 pm by IDM »
I understand ldr, but this situation is much worse due to the inadequacies of the PM and his government.

This thing with what he said about care homes is absolutely typical.  At least he should have the balls to speak out in person and admit what he said wasn’t quite what he meant but more importantly that he understands the concerns voiced today..

Donnywolf

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #6059 on July 07, 2020, 04:11:22 pm by Donnywolf »

And you wonder why folks are so anti-government.?


Thats is not helped at all by FPTPost system we currently have to live under till it is democratially changed and which almost every General Election elects a Government which has polled less votes in total than the oppositon parties

So this time round 43% of the Votes cast went to Tories and 57% of the votes cast went to other Parties - presumably ones who were opposed to the Tory Party

So 57 pc of folks were anti Govt at the Polls and surely that number will have risen (calls for speculation of course)

 

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