Coronavirus

[drfchound]

There are people who have different beliefs to the majority.
Is it right to ridicule them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I was talking the other day about the batshit Trumpist leadership in the Deep South taking them into an avoidable disaster.

This. Just...WHAT?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tate-reeves-says-mississippians-less-scared-covid-because-they-believe-eternal-life-1624014%3famp=1

while of course it's a load of crap you could say that in this country as there are many
Religious people in this country that won't have the jab, my mate lives in Blackburn and he reckons on the estate he lives in he doubts very few if any will have had the jab

The issue isn't whether individuals choose to cut short their lives.

It's about an elected leader using a line like this to distract from the catastrophic policy he has implemented which is wreaking carnage in his state.

"Nothing to do with me. It's people being cool about dying, cos, eternal life."

[wilts rover]

How Europe has overtaken the UK in vaccinating it's citizens - and is better prepared for the future. In that lefty rag - The Daily Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/europe-pulling-ahead-britain-great-covid-race/

[wilts rover]

though we are well ahead in cases and infections

[bpoolrover]

The government can't win when it comes to vaccinations, the only way to get them higher would be threaten the younger age group with not going nightclubs do what Germany say will do and say can't go hairdressers ect but there is uproar in this country if anything like that is said

[River Don]

They could vaccinated 12-15 year olds. That's in the pipeline now.

[BillyStubbsTears]

They couldn't prior to now. Because we hadn't ordered the vaccines suitable for 12-15 year olds. Most countries in the EU had the vaccine a while ago and have been vaccinating 12-15 year olds well before us. 

And these things happen. But it's a mistake that needs to be weighed in the balance when considering our overall vaccination programme performance.

[bpoolrover]

What I saw was the government had not received any more on the matter from jcvi or is that wrong? Or do people want the government to overrule them or not listen?

[SydneyRover]

I think most reasonable people would be happy to see consistency from the government, open about the information and advice it gets and erring on the side of caution when it comes to peoples lives, especially those that work in health care.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What I saw was the government had not received any more on the matter from jcvi or is that wrong? Or do people want the government to overrule them or not listen?

JCVI ruling that we shouldn't be vaccinating 12-15 year olds stands out pretty much uniquely in the developed world. All across Europe and the USA they have been vaccinating down to 12 year olds with the Pfizer vaccine for weeks. We stand out, ostensibly because of safety fears, but there's been no explanation about why we see the data differently to the EU and USA. I'm sure it's coincidence that we hadn't previously ordered  enough Pfizer vaccine to cover this age group. I wonder if, when the next Pfizer delivery comes next month, JCVI will then find that it is OK for 12-15 year olds?

[bpoolrover]

That is just a guess thou bst, if boris said today without the jcvi say so to vaccinate all 12-15 year olds and it went wrong you would be in uproar if anything went wrong! People woukd be calling for manslaughter charges and all sorts

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

[selby]

  Well I got my notification of a booster jab and flu jab Friday from the NHS, so that is going ahead.

[wilts rover]

And why it matters - study from Israel showing waning protection from vaccinations. Re-infection of vaccnated people more than doubled in August:

https://twitter.com/dvir_a/status/1431898057331945472

[wilts rover]

The government can't win when it comes to vaccinations, the only way to get them higher would be threaten the younger age group with not going nightclubs do what Germany say will do and say can't go hairdressers ect but there is uproar in this country if anything like that is said

Its what happens when you have a government that consistently lies to you - people dont know what to believe. And we all suffer.

[River Don]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

It's a bit debatable. I know the argument is 12 to 15 year old are less affected by the virus, so instead send vaccines to those who need protection abroad. Fine.

But if we want to significantly lower the circulation of the virus in this country, then we need a very high level of immunity to achieve herd immunity, then we need above 90% of the population vaccinated, in which case we need to vaccinated younger age groups.

Given the choice of protecting more vulnerable people internationally or surpressing the spread of the virus in the UK, many in the medical community plump for the international option.

[SydneyRover]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

It's a bit debatable. I know the argument is 12 to 15 year old are less affected by the virus, so instead send vaccines to those who need protection abroad. Fine.

But if we want to significantly lower the circulation of the virus in this country, then we need a very high level of immunity to achieve herd immunity, then we need above 90% of the population vaccinated, in which case we need to vaccinated younger age groups.

Given the choice of protecting more vulnerable people internationally or surpressing the spread of the virus in the UK, many in the medical community plump for the international option.

Every wealthy country should be able to do both, pour money into vaccine manufacture, get their own population done afap and supply countries that struggle with cost.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

It's a bit debatable. I know the argument is 12 to 15 year old are less affected by the virus, so instead send vaccines to those who need protection abroad. Fine.

But if we want to significantly lower the circulation of the virus in this country, then we need a very high level of immunity to achieve herd immunity, then we need above 90% of the population vaccinated, in which case we need to vaccinated younger age groups.

Given the choice of protecting more vulnerable people internationally or surpressing the spread of the virus in the UK, many in the medical community plump for the international option.

Every wealthy country should be able to do both, pour money into vaccine manufacture, get their own population done afap and supply countries that struggle with cost.

Clearly not or it would have happened by now. There is a question as to if it's possible anyway given you can't control many countries (Afghanistan, Syria, North Korea and many more).

[selby]

This years flu campaign will be commencing from September and this will be coordinated with  the Covid booster vaccinations. part of a text sent to me  last Friday.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

BFYP.
My point is, why is OUR scientific assessment so far out of line with the USA and EU.

And do you honestly think we didn't  secure Pfizer jabs because the Govt had an altruistic wish to see people in Burundi get vaccinated? Honestly?

What has happened is very simple (and I'm making no value judgement here, it's just simple fact).

We prioritised securing the AZ vaccine. Turns out the health case for giving that one to kids really doesn't stack up. And as a result, we've ended up very short of the Pfizer vaccine. I'm not criticising the Govt for this. Just pointing out the facts. They made a call on what to prioritise. On this one, events have shown it to be wrong but I'm not sure they should be critised for that. Equally, we shouldn't ignore or try to explain it away with fluffy unicorn arguments about helping other countries.


As I say, it's a near enough slam dunk that the JCVI guidance will change when the next big Pfizer delivery comes in next month.

[dickos1]

You're quite something Dickos. Constantly changing the terms of the discussion, totally ignoring your utterly wrong previous opinions, turning a blind eye to facts and then claiming you are right. 

I think most of the world has been wrong regards covid, you keep bringing up something I said 19 months ago yet you’ve been consistently wrong over the last few weeks.
Anyhow I’m not changing the terms of the discussion I’m pointing out USA doesn’t have it under control and England isn’t doing as badly as you’re trying to portray to everyone

Your attitude 19 months ago, when some of us were warning where things were going was smug, condescending and dangerously wrong. You refused to even consider COVID as a serious threat. If policy had been guided by people with your attitude, 2020 would have been a catastrophe like you cannot imagine.

But you ignore that. You don't reflect on how appallingly badly you called that, and how you insulted and belittled people who were (correctly) warning people what was coming. Not a word of apology or self awareness. Just launch into the next argument.

I’m pretty certain I didn’t belittle anyone, and I’m definitely certain I didn’t insult anyone.
Smug and condescending, nope pretty certain that never happened either!

[River Don]

Actually this is right. The bigger threat to our safety long term is not 12 year olds but failing to vaccinate other countries.  The better thing to do is provide other countries with vaccines, that's what most scientists claim.

You can't say it's follow the science one way then not in another to suit your anti government agenda.

It's a bit debatable. I know the argument is 12 to 15 year old are less affected by the virus, so instead send vaccines to those who need protection abroad. Fine.

But if we want to significantly lower the circulation of the virus in this country, then we need a very high level of immunity to achieve herd immunity, then we need above 90% of the population vaccinated, in which case we need to vaccinated younger age groups.

Given the choice of protecting more vulnerable people internationally or surpressing the spread of the virus in the UK, many in the medical community plump for the international option.

Every wealthy country should be able to do both, pour money into vaccine manufacture, get their own population done afap and supply countries that struggle with cost.

I think it's more a question of logistics. They can't manufacture the stuff fast enough and it takes time to build enough new facilities to increase capacity.

[dickos1]

In this current discussion, I've said, repeatedly, with evidence, that in MOST of America, the outbreak in terms of new cases is reasonably well under control. The overall USA numbers are not good and that is due to the fact that the Deep South is seeing an outbreak that is utterly out of control and has been allowed to get that way by insane libertarian policies from Trumpist state leaders.

Every word of that is fact and supported by the evidence.

But you are impossible to have an evidence-based discussion with. Because you decide your conclusion before you start. Then you look for any shred of evidence, however unrepresentative, to back that up, ignoring the mass of contradictory evidence. And when that fails you say "Well come back in 5 years and see. I'll be right then." Ignoring how utterly, totally, dangerously wrong you were when this all started.

As dangerously wrong as attempting to convince everyone we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now and hundred of deaths. It’s a good job we knew it was codswallop otherwise we’d all be barricaded in our homes right now

[dickos1]

In this current discussion, I've said, repeatedly, with evidence, that in MOST of America, the outbreak in terms of new cases is reasonably well under control. The overall USA numbers are not good and that is due to the fact that the Deep South is seeing an outbreak that is utterly out of control and has been allowed to get that way by insane libertarian policies from Trumpist state leaders.

Every word of that is fact and supported by the evidence.

But you are impossible to have an evidence-based discussion with. Because you decide your conclusion before you start. Then you look for any shred of evidence, however unrepresentative, to back that up, ignoring the mass of contradictory evidence. And when that fails you say "Well come back in 5 years and see. I'll be right then." Ignoring how utterly, totally, dangerously wrong you were when this all started.

California is not the Deep South

[bpoolrover]

I read that Scotland's cases have doubled each week since they relaxed there restrictions, not since reopened schools so again gives a bit of hope that our numbers won't rise dramatically

[BillyStubbsTears]

In this current discussion, I've said, repeatedly, with evidence, that in MOST of America, the outbreak in terms of new cases is reasonably well under control. The overall USA numbers are not good and that is due to the fact that the Deep South is seeing an outbreak that is utterly out of control and has been allowed to get that way by insane libertarian policies from Trumpist state leaders.

Every word of that is fact and supported by the evidence.

But you are impossible to have an evidence-based discussion with. Because you decide your conclusion before you start. Then you look for any shred of evidence, however unrepresentative, to back that up, ignoring the mass of contradictory evidence. And when that fails you say "Well come back in 5 years and see. I'll be right then." Ignoring how utterly, totally, dangerously wrong you were when this all started.

As dangerously wrong as attempting to convince everyone we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now and hundred of deaths. It’s a good job we knew it was codswallop otherwise we’d all be barricaded in our homes right now

Way, WAY more dangerously wrong. If you don't understand why, then I'm baffled as to how to point it out to you.

PS. I never once said that we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now. I never once said or even hinted we should be barricaded in homes. It is THIS approach that makes you impossible to deal with.  If you are going to make a case, make it on facts, not imagination.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

But, is it fine to have cases in kids? We've relaxed restrictions yet are maintaining a relatively stable case level (England broadly unchanged over 3 weeks) with basically no restrictions left that's not too bad is it?

[drfchound]

In this current discussion, I've said, repeatedly, with evidence, that in MOST of America, the outbreak in terms of new cases is reasonably well under control. The overall USA numbers are not good and that is due to the fact that the Deep South is seeing an outbreak that is utterly out of control and has been allowed to get that way by insane libertarian policies from Trumpist state leaders.

Every word of that is fact and supported by the evidence.

But you are impossible to have an evidence-based discussion with. Because you decide your conclusion before you start. Then you look for any shred of evidence, however unrepresentative, to back that up, ignoring the mass of contradictory evidence. And when that fails you say "Well come back in 5 years and see. I'll be right then." Ignoring how utterly, totally, dangerously wrong you were when this all started.

As dangerously wrong as attempting to convince everyone we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now and hundred of deaths. It’s a good job we knew it was codswallop otherwise we’d all be barricaded in our homes right now

Way, WAY more dangerously wrong. If you don't understand why, then I'm baffled as to how to point it out to you.

PS. I never once said that we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now. I never once said or even hinted we should be barricaded in homes. It is THIS approach that makes you impossible to deal with.  If you are going to make a case, make it on facts, not imagination.

Dickos didn’t suggest that you had said we should be barricaded into our homes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP
It is about what is necessary for Herd Immunity.

Because of the 10-15% of adults refusing vaccination, we are not at HI. And so we've got 4-5000 deaths per month and several thousand hospital beds taken up for a long time. Vaccinating teens gives us a fighting chance of getting R below 1 and starting to get those numbers down.

It'd be grand if we could rely on all adults to be grown up, then it might not be necessary, but that's where we are.

[dickos1]

In this current discussion, I've said, repeatedly, with evidence, that in MOST of America, the outbreak in terms of new cases is reasonably well under control. The overall USA numbers are not good and that is due to the fact that the Deep South is seeing an outbreak that is utterly out of control and has been allowed to get that way by insane libertarian policies from Trumpist state leaders.

Every word of that is fact and supported by the evidence.

But you are impossible to have an evidence-based discussion with. Because you decide your conclusion before you start. Then you look for any shred of evidence, however unrepresentative, to back that up, ignoring the mass of contradictory evidence. And when that fails you say "Well come back in 5 years and see. I'll be right then." Ignoring how utterly, totally, dangerously wrong you were when this all started.

As dangerously wrong as attempting to convince everyone we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now and hundred of deaths. It’s a good job we knew it was codswallop otherwise we’d all be barricaded in our homes right now

Way, WAY more dangerously wrong. If you don't understand why, then I'm baffled as to how to point it out to you.

PS. I never once said that we would be having hundreds of thousands of cases by now. I never once said or even hinted we should be barricaded in homes. It is THIS approach that makes you impossible to deal with.  If you are going to make a case, make it on facts, not imagination.

Although you did state we would be having over 2000 deaths a week in august from covid
20,000 people in hospital beds in august with covid

If anyone was mad enough to believe those predictions they wouldn’t dare leave the house that’s my point, not that you’d told people to do so