Coronavirus

[BillyStubbsTears]

It isn't hyperbole. It is simple maths.

The infection fatality rate is somewhere between 0.5-1%.

There are 68,000,000 people in the UK.

In an unmitigated outbreak, you might expect 70-80% of the population to get infected.

Do the maths. Somewhere between 250,000-500,000 deaths.

And even though I am REALLY f**king tired of this, because I've done it 20 times, I'll refer you to the case of Bergamo, where the one and only unmitigated outbreak in the world occurred. In Bergamo, 0.6% of the entire population died of COVID in 6 weeks.

Do the maths. Scale that up to a country of 68 million. Or explain why we would have been different.

[Nudga]

Did you manage to bully your employee into getting the vaccine he didn't want?

Nope. Because I don't bully my employees, I try to protect them.

We lost 20 man-weeks of time from other staff who had COVID symptoms and who we asked to stay at home to protect this colleague.

Then he copped a dose. Was off for two weeks stuck in bed, while we organised food for him. Said it's the worst illness he's ever had, and is significantly weaker and less productive than he was before.

See, you were one of the many lucky ones Nudga. But I f**king despise the people who infected my colleague's head and our cleaner's head with that sort of shite that you push. Because they never have to face up to the damage they do to people.

How have I damaged people?

What I despised is people like you pushing a new injection on others who either didn't want it and trusted their own bodies to shake it off, were worried about it or hated the fact that we were being bullied, coerced or shamed into having it.
Shills like Jeremy Vine, Morgan, Dr Hilary, Schofield and many many others spouting just as much poisonous shit as David f**kin icke, f**k me they even gave air time to that weird Kitson at Pimlico Plumbers.
Difference is, they were given primetime TV slots to do this.
Some of the utter lies and b*llocks I heard on daytime TV at customer's houses was relentless.
My wife has had three jabs after being bullied and threatened at work and she was slightly worse than me.  The vaccines knocked her off her feet more than Rona.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nudga


I've seen two people close up have their minds corrupted by the utter b*llocks that the virus is somewhere between useless and a plot to inject microchips in them.

I've seen one very nearly die. A fit and healthy 45 year old. I've seen another, a vulnerable, lonely 60 year old have his health permanently scarred and his psychology f**ked all over.

You keep on indulging yourself. With no f**king idea of the damage you and your like are doing.

[Nudga]

And I've seen people damaged by the vaccine but you don't believe it where as I'm supposed to believe you with your anecdotal stories.

[Bristol Red Rover]

For you to be pulling this
"I've seen two people close up have their minds corrupted by the utter b*llocks that the virus is somewhere between useless and a plot to inject microchips in them."
in response to what Nudga has said is a bit daft, or is it more deliberate rhetoric style, misinformation discussion?

That there is damage from all kinds of vaccines is undoubted. How to count that is the problem, and is always glossed over by the media, and you. The same is the case in many sitiuations where "evidence" is called for. There are those who think that nothing is "evidenced" unless there is a replicable double blind placebo controlled study. But then studies are riddled with problems, including funding boas, and even plane fakery whch most of these same people lap up. It is the world of black and white, stuff the noncy nuance, or even the probable. It's also a world dominated by people with professional, financial interests, and simple cultish needs. And by those with a mental perspective that is "on the spectrum". I say that last part having experienced these people over many decades.

Back to mrna covid vaccines. The adverse effects have not been studied fully. They are not functionally understood. The short term effects, as referred to by Nudga, are fairly extensive. If you take deaths from the vaccines within 28 days, you get a similar figure to the deaths from covid within 28 days (my research using government stats). From what I have seen it is at least significantly questionable about the increase in sudden deaths from circulatory symptoms in young fit adults.

Then there are medium term effects - a few months to a couple of years, generally caused by a direct effect of the short term effect wearing down the body or finally triggering a death. These may have comorbidities that have been increased since the vaccine.

And then long term effects. No one knows these yet, and probably won't ever as medicine is pretty much incapable of tracing things beyond the very short term (hence the 28 day thing with covid). The exception generally being relating to asbestos, and other clear grouped carcinogenic causes, or other grouped illnesses like pneumonicosis. To suggest there are no long term effects is stupid, but the extent and type of them, we might never know - or be told.

The above is known, but of course is never told to the public expecially during a "policy" as vaccination was. It is an intervention with costs and benefits. Basically you pays your money and takes your chance. It's a gamble either way. I'm guessing it is about 50/50 with the covid vacc. With other vaccs the risk can be much higher, with some lower. You don't get owt for nowt.

[ncRover]

It isn't hyperbole. It is simple maths.

The infection fatality rate is somewhere between 0.5-1%.

There are 68,000,000 people in the UK.

In an unmitigated outbreak, you might expect 70-80% of the population to get infected.

Do the maths. Somewhere between 250,000-500,000 deaths.

And even though I am REALLY f**king tired of this, because I've done it 20 times, I'll refer you to the case of Bergamo, where the one and only unmitigated outbreak in the world occurred. In Bergamo, 0.6% of the entire population died of COVID in 6 weeks.

Do the maths. Scale that up to a country of 68 million. Or explain why we would have been different.

Wasn’t that outbreak in Feb 2020 not long after China and the WHO were downplaying the seriousness of the virus?

Once people are aware of the dangers, who is at risk and how it is spread it is no longer an unmitigated outbreak due to behavioural changes.

In terms of the ethics of lockdowns, I have no more to add than what Tommy C wrote.

Behavioural changes were evident as the peak was starting to plateau and drop before the lag time for lockdown measures to take effect after Xmas 2020. The omicron peak also came and went without any intervention.

I await yours and Sydney’s response to the current excess death statistics I posted for UK and in Europe (so you can’t point towards an “underfunded NHS”). The NHS is more overwhelmed now than it was during any stage of the pandemic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And I've seen people damaged by the vaccine but you don't believe it where as I'm supposed to believe you with your anecdotal stories.

Yeah I know. It's quite astonishing how many people you know personally who've become seriously ill after taking the vaccine.

I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has had any side effects. How odd.

[Nudga]

And I've seen people damaged by the vaccine but you don't believe it where as I'm supposed to believe you with your anecdotal stories.

Yeah I know. It's quite astonishing how many people you know personally who've become seriously ill after taking the vaccine.

I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has had any side effects. How odd.

See.

I don't know anyone who's been seriously poorly with COVID either, so yeah quite astonishing.

[SydneyRover]

It isn't hyperbole. It is simple maths.

The infection fatality rate is somewhere between 0.5-1%.

There are 68,000,000 people in the UK.

In an unmitigated outbreak, you might expect 70-80% of the population to get infected.

Do the maths. Somewhere between 250,000-500,000 deaths.

And even though I am REALLY f**king tired of this, because I've done it 20 times, I'll refer you to the case of Bergamo, where the one and only unmitigated outbreak in the world occurred. In Bergamo, 0.6% of the entire population died of COVID in 6 weeks.

Do the maths. Scale that up to a country of 68 million. Or explain why we would have been different.

Wasn’t that outbreak in Feb 2020 not long after China and the WHO were downplaying the seriousness of the virus?

Once people are aware of the dangers, who is at risk and how it is spread it is no longer an unmitigated outbreak due to behavioural changes.

In terms of the ethics of lockdowns, I have no more to add than what Tommy C wrote.

Behavioural changes were evident as the peak was starting to plateau and drop before the lag time for lockdown measures to take effect after Xmas 2020. The omicron peak also came and went without any intervention.

I await yours and Sydney’s response to the current excess death statistics I posted for UK and in Europe (so you can’t point towards an “underfunded NHS”). The NHS is more overwhelmed now than it was during any stage of the pandemic.

The numbers of excess deaths due to covid in the uk have been established by scientific means, the excess deaths non-covid are far less (but doesn't mean they are not important) and I would think most likely due to medical facilities being overcrowded, under funded, under prepared, under staffed and overworked due to the deliberate policies from 2010 of the governments in charge. These statistics are available. Therefore many illnesses went undiagnosed especially during major covid outbreaks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The number of people in England & Wales who have been recorded as dying due to an adverse reaction to the COVID vaccine is regularly reported by the ONS.

The current figure is 48. In total, over two years.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And I've seen people damaged by the vaccine but you don't believe it where as I'm supposed to believe you with your anecdotal stories.

Yeah I know. It's quite astonishing how many people you know personally who've become seriously ill after taking the vaccine.

I don't know anyone who knows anyone who has had any side effects. How odd.

See.

I don't know anyone who's been seriously poorly with COVID either, so yeah quite astonishing.

And yet 200,000 have died.

Maybe your extreme bad luck on the vaccine reactions is offset by your extreme good luck in not knowing anyone who's had a rough time with COVID. You're quite an unusual case.

[Nudga]

The number of people in England & Wales who have been recorded as dying due to an adverse reaction to the COVID vaccine is regularly reported by the ONS.

The current figure is 48. In total, over two years.

Is that within 28 days of having the hope jabbed into arms?

Asking for a conspiracy theorist friend.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The number of people in England & Wales who have been recorded as dying due to an adverse reaction to the COVID vaccine is regularly reported by the ONS.

The current figure is 48. In total, over two years.

Pretty weak amateur argument made out to be official, more so that you just through that figure out without further qualification.

First, esp in the UK its almost impossible to get a death recorded as being due to a vaccine, far easier in the US. Plus it takes time for all those figures to come through.

And then we have the way a vaccine causes other things to come into play. Note my post above where I said deaths within 28 days of a vaccine are almost identical to those within 28 days of covid. That was proportionally, not gross.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Strange, that, because we've been told regularly in here that the vaccine causes hearts to expand and legs to stop working.

I don't remember seeing those as COVID symptoms, but as ever, I'm sure BRR will have loads of impartial evidence that he'll share with us.

[ravenrover]

Surely he can only speak from having had the Russian vaccine

[ncRover]

It isn't hyperbole. It is simple maths.

The infection fatality rate is somewhere between 0.5-1%.

There are 68,000,000 people in the UK.

In an unmitigated outbreak, you might expect 70-80% of the population to get infected.

Do the maths. Somewhere between 250,000-500,000 deaths.

And even though I am REALLY f**king tired of this, because I've done it 20 times, I'll refer you to the case of Bergamo, where the one and only unmitigated outbreak in the world occurred. In Bergamo, 0.6% of the entire population died of COVID in 6 weeks.

Do the maths. Scale that up to a country of 68 million. Or explain why we would have been different.

Wasn’t that outbreak in Feb 2020 not long after China and the WHO were downplaying the seriousness of the virus?

Once people are aware of the dangers, who is at risk and how it is spread it is no longer an unmitigated outbreak due to behavioural changes.

In terms of the ethics of lockdowns, I have no more to add than what Tommy C wrote.

Behavioural changes were evident as the peak was starting to plateau and drop before the lag time for lockdown measures to take effect after Xmas 2020. The omicron peak also came and went without any intervention.

I await yours and Sydney’s response to the current excess death statistics I posted for UK and in Europe (so you can’t point towards an “underfunded NHS”). The NHS is more overwhelmed now than it was during any stage of the pandemic.

The numbers of excess deaths due to covid in the uk have been established by scientific means, the excess deaths non-covid are far less (but doesn't mean they are not important) and I would think most likely due to medical facilities being overcrowded, under funded, under prepared, under staffed and overworked due to the deliberate policies from 2010 of the governments in charge. These statistics are available. Therefore many illnesses went undiagnosed especially during major covid outbreaks.

I also linked European figures.

[SydneyRover]

nc, maybe you need to state/restate the point you are trying to make and please provide supporting scientific data to support it.

I don't wish to get bogged down in all this again so unless you have something new I am no longer interested in what you think on this subject.

[ncRover]

nc, maybe you need to state/restate the point you are trying to make and please provide supporting scientific data to support it.

I don't wish to get bogged down in all this again so unless you have something new I am no longer interested in what you think on this subject.

I am saying that lockdowns here and in Europe have made people unhealthier and health systems weaker (I don’t need to prove that because why wouldn’t they? You prove otherwise). And that the very vulnerable people that lockdowns saved are subsequently passing away now in excess numbers.

The only pro to lockdown to counter the multitude of cons was the idea that it was saving lives. But has it? The average age of a covid death was 81 or so? I don’t mean to trivialise them as every death is tragic.

I don’t want to get bogged down either because we’re never going to agree. I’m just trying to challenge your viewpoints. As you are mine.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc.

Just a moment.

Are you actually saying that without lockdowns, health services across the world would now be in better positions?

Run me through the logic that takes you to that conclusion.

[ncRover]

Nc.

Just a moment.

Are you actually saying that without lockdowns, health services across the world would now be in better positions?

Run me through the logic that takes you to that conclusion.

Yes. The clinically vulnerable and those working with them would have done exactly the same as if the entire population had been told to lockdown. Like I said above and Tommy C alluded to, it is only an unmitigated outbreak if people aren’t aware  so you can drop your idea of a collapsed health system unless we’d have had a hard lockdown before rubbishing any of these points.

Severe restrictions also remained on freedoms long after the clinically vulnerable were vaccinated and thus their risk even further reduced. Overkill.

No GP face to face for 2 years and all the knock on effects that come with that. It is now harder than before to get a GP appointment, you cannot dispute that.

Negative effect on mental health. Increase in anxiety and depression disorders. https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/new-paper-reveals-impact-of-first-lockdown-on-depression-and-anxiety-diagnosis/
This increases the strain on the NHS directly and also indirectly through the negative effect it has on physical health and the immune system. https://www.choicehousecolorado.com/stressful-vulnerability-how-anxiety-can-weaken-our-immune-system/

Increase in loneliness. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/04/over-nearly-80-years-harvard-study-has-been-showing-how-to-live-a-healthy-and-happy-life/  “Lonliness kills,” the study director said. “It’s as powerful as smoking or alcoholism.”

People were and still are less active. Exercise and vitamin D are good for the immune system https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/does-exercise-boost-immune-system#exercise-and-immunity 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

Perhaps if this had been encouraged in lockdown 1 rather than sports being banned then people would have fared better later on in the year / the next year from covid through not being obese for having poor cardiovascular health.
Obesity increases the mortality risk for covid https://www.science.org/content/article/why-covid-19-more-deadly-people-obesity-even-if-theyre-young

Children missing from school and delayed development. More needing S+L therapy. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/16/covid-lockdowns-left-toddlers-unable-speak-play-properly/

Postponed cancer screening will lead to additional deaths. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41416-022-01714-9

Contribution to Inflation. People were paid to sit at home. Money devalued. Increased gov spending and then debt repayment via borrowing will also contribute to this. Less money for healthcare as cuts are now having to be made.

Poor economic outcomes - increased poverty which negatively effects everything.

And at the end of the day, it was a virus like all others in respect to the fact that it could not be suppressed. Governments left a trail of destruction trying to achieve the impossible.

All you have to counter are catastrophising models of which were consistently pessimistic and proven wrong.

[Nudga]

Who can forget 22 blokes playing football and then when some were subbed, they had to put a mask on?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Strange, that, because we've been told regularly in here that the vaccine causes hearts to expand and legs to stop working.

I don't remember seeing those as COVID symptoms, but as ever, I'm sure BRR will have loads of impartial evidence that he'll share with us.

What might be the reason for those stmptoms? And do you honestly think that's the only effect?

[Bristol Red Rover]

 

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

I agree that overwhelming NHS services was a problem. However, due to those lack of beds, doctors were turning off life support and giving up on viable cases too quickly, part of the stats you are working with.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

I agree that overwhelming NHS services was a problem. However, due to those lack of beds, doctors were turning off life support and giving up on viable cases too quickly, part of the stats you are working with.

And your evidence for this is?

[tommy toes]

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

I agree that overwhelming NHS services was a problem. However, due to those lack of beds, doctors were turning off life support and giving up on viable cases too quickly, part of the stats you are working with.

Christ Almighty, where did that come from?
That's a pretty diabolical unsubstantiated accusation.

[Nudga]

Oops



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8514081/Number-prescriptions-drug-midazolam-doubled-height-pandemic.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

They were f**king dying! In their thousands. Because a deadly epidemic had got out of control. What did you want medics to do? Leave them to die in agony?

My wife's grandmother died in a care home at 94 years old last year. She didn't have COVID. She was given sedatives to ease her pain in her last days. Just as I'd hope I would be in her situation.

The utter inhumanity of some of these conspiracy theories is simply disgusting. Take out of context information and use it to satisfy a perverted need to tell people that there's an industrial scale plot to kill people. f**king awful behaviour.

[ncRover]

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

I supported the first lockdown, but it went on too long and we didn’t need to go in to the others. The care home mismanagement that occurred around that time from Hancock was criminal.

Im also not suggesting that there should have been no measures at all, just that the ones put in place, and the fear and later division stoked was overreaction.

Vaccinations could have been gotten through quicker had those who had previous infection been skipped for example. But people chose to deny fundamental biology.

I’m not going to get through to you because you believe that the only way that an epidemic curve can come down is through lockdown. Rather than behavioural change (through encouragement and education as opposed to tyranny) and immunity levels.

Please enlighten me and counter some of my claims with evidence and I’ll be happy to debate rather than you just “giving up”.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Nc.
I got as far as your first paragraph and gave up.

The NHS barely had a spare bed by the time the lockdowns took effect.

I'll ask again, talk me through what would have happened had those lockdowns not been imposed.

And don't give me this "cases were plateauing without lockdown " garbage. It's absolute nonsense, repeated as fact by lockdown sceptics.

And don't give me that trite "just protect the vulnerable" nonsense either. I've explained why that was a non-starter. And if it was, why do you think no country in the world tried it?

I agree that overwhelming NHS services was a problem. However, due to those lack of beds, doctors were turning off life support and giving up on viable cases too quickly, part of the stats you are working with.

And your evidence for this is?

Logic - stress, a war zone of makeshift desision making, the need to target respirators to those "most viable", and my first hand personal experience of the results of this.

Someone in A&E with chronic copd, gone into acute bordering on pneumonia, no covid. He was also deaf. The doc wanted to turn off a respirator, but was waiting for one of the key family members to arrive to have the "discussion" with the family. That family member was an hour late. Meanwhile, some members of the family had seen the patient open his eyes, smile, give the thumbs up. Remember only one visitor allowed in at a time. That was reported to the doc in the "turning off the respirator" discussion, the doc claimed this was unlikely, and still proposed to turn off the machine. Family extremely distraught. 20 mins later the doc returns to say some tests done (couple of hours ago) show that actually he's okay but needs to transfer to an acute ward.... one packed full of covid!

So, on top of the premature culling decision, a patient with borderline death respiratory problems was put in a covid ward. I wonder how many hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands THAT happened to? Some would suggest covid is highly transmissable, where lockdown and isloation are the only way forwards.