This isn't the Brexit I voted for (part 2)...

[BillyStubbsTears]

  I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.

Thanks for that advice Selby. I'll ask my wife for her opinion, given that she's going to Ferrara next month to look after her ill grandmother. Knowing her, I assume she'd have some interesting although not massively practical suggestions for what you could do to help.

[Not Now Kato]

You’re both missing the point.

Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread

Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive

Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.

Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.

What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA?  You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
 
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
 
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
 
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
 
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.

NNK

Quote from your post:

UK - We want a trade deal
 
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
   
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist

 India - That is brand new information!!

Does this mean the UK is racist? Leaver voters are racist? Our Government is racist? Or none of the above?

I didn’t realise that I needed to be critical of the ‘racist leave campaign’. I hoped, and assumed, you’d take it as read that I didn’t agree with any of that nonsense. Being a leave voter, having the racist card thrown at you does come with the territory unfortunately. However, just for you NNK, here goes:

“As a former member of both the anti nazi league and Rock against racism, and as someone who has attended many anti racism demo’s in the past, including counter demo’s against the NF, I wholeheartedly oppose and disagree with any racist views, thoughts, actions and opinions, both inside and outside of the Brexit ‘debate’.

Ok?

We already know that many leave voters made their decision based on the racist propaganda of the leave campaigns - that's a given.  I personally know an awful lot of people who voted that way for that reason, heck I know one guy who won't watch BBC Breakfast TV if Naga Munchetti is on "because she's black"!
 
It's also clear that a number of members of our government is openly racist - again, you just have to look at the comments of people like Johnson when he talks about 'letterbox people', 'flag-waving piccaninnies', people with 'watermelon smiles', 'hook nosed Arabs' and mocking the Chinese in a Spectator article ‘Prease, sir,’ said the BA girl. ‘Prease come with me. I have found a better seat for you in row 52.’
 
So yes, I believe a large number of people in this country are indeed racist to some degree and that degree varies from person to person.
 
I take on board your previous stance on Nazism, the NF and Anti Racism and your current stance on racism, and from that I hope that you can now see that there is nothing in my earlier posting that is even remotely racist, merely a suggestion that many people in the UK are; and that that should be a worry for us all.

Fair enough NNK

Of course there’s a significant number of racists in the UK and I’ve been fighting against that for most of my life. Has the UK become more racist since Brexit? I’m not sure, but what it has done has given these people a platform to spout their nonsense from and even more so with the Tory government that we have now.

I don’t feel that there’s necessarily more racists now. I’m old enough to remember the massive NF rallies in the 80’s in London. Passers by would cheer them on whilst attacking us in the much smaller counter demo. But I do agree that it has made some racists feel their views are legitimatised to a point.

Agreed HA, people now seem to be more 'open', (if that's the right word), about their views on foreigners.  It certainly has become more prevalent since the results of the referendum and I can honestly see it getting worse, not better when people who thought voting leave would rid us of these foreigners realise that most of those who are already here will still be here when the milk, honey and unicorns promised by the leave campaigners fail to arrive.  These same people will need to have someone to blame, and guess who it's likely to be!

[wilts rover]

  I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.

About as likely as you coming out of retirement to pick cabbages in Lincolnshire next season and pop down to Snaith to help with their clean up operations as you have now 'taken back control' I should think.

[selby]

  Talking of cabbages Wilts you have reminded me our lass asked me to pick one up from the shop on the way home.

[tyke1962]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

[Not Now Kato]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

1) The world will be a very different place by the time of the next election. We will then be dealing with the consequences of Brexit, not the expectation of it.

2) The electorate will be very different by the time of the next election. It is a fact that Brexit voters were predominantly older and Leave supporters predominantly younger. There will be far fewer of the older people who voted Leave around by 2024 and a lot more younger people. That's not a value judgement. It's just a demographic fact.

3) Put those two facts together and your argument that anyone who wants to point out the negative consequences of Brexit is bound to lose next time round is fatally flawed. There is a far bigger threat to Labour in being seen to not point out those negatives. That is the path to losing the younger vote, as Labour did so spectacularly in the first half of 2019. My take is that democracy doesn't end because a vote happens. You have to deal with the consequences. My take ever since 12 Dec 2019 has been to remind those who voted Leave and/or Tory that they now hold the responsibility for the consequences. The country is now on the path they wanted. They need to be grown up enough to embrace that, and not blame the other side.

[tyke1962]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

[Herbert Anchovy]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop  paying UK child benefits to children living outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

1) The world will be a very different place by the time of the next election. We will then be dealing with the consequences of Brexit, not the expectation of it.

2) The electorate will be very different by the time of the next election. It is a fact that Brexit voters were predominantly older and Leave supporters predominantly younger. There will be far fewer of the older people who voted Leave around by 2024 and a lot more younger people. That's not a value judgement. It's just a demographic fact.

3) Put those two facts together and your argument that anyone who wants to point out the negative consequences of Brexit is bound to lose next time round is fatally flawed. There is a far bigger threat to Labour in being seen to not point out those negatives. That is the path to losing the younger vote, as Labour did so spectacularly in the first half of 2019. My take is that democracy doesn't end because a vote happens. You have to deal with the consequences. My take ever since 12 Dec 2019 has been to remind those who voted Leave and/or Tory that they now hold the responsibility for the consequences. The country is now on the path they wanted. They need to be grown up enough to embrace that, and not blame the other side.

There's a lot of moving parts there Billy .

If's but's and maybe's , neither you or I know the political landscape in five years time and if you ask 10 economic so called experts for a forecast on anything you will receive 10 different answers .

Which isn't to say there won't be bumps in the road , of course there will be , inside the EU doesn't give you recession immunity either .

Any bumps will be a price worth paying for getting out of this club and getting a head start before the thing goes completely tyts up which in my opinion it will .

My grandkid will thank me when he comes of age of that I'm totally confident .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.

Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.

Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.

Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .

You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .

" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "

What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?

If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .

" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "

Emily Thornberry .

Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?

I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .

You may want to revisit that one Mandy .

The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .

Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .

It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .

At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .

It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hang on.

You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.

[scawsby steve]

Tyke.

You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.

Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.

Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .

You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .

" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "

What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?

If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .

" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "

Emily Thornberry .

Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?

I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .

You may want to revisit that one Mandy .

The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .

Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .

It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .

At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .

It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .

You're wasting your time with them Tyke. They just don't get why Labour got slaughtered, and they'd been continuously warned on here that there'd be a day of reckoning for the betrayal on Brexit, and for the constant snipes, sneers, and insults, and yet they're still at it.

They couldn't see the amount of anger among Northern Leave voters, and they think that Keir Starmer is the man to reconcile them. Really?

[tyke1962]

Hang on.

You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.

Well for a start there's a trade deal to negotiate which clearly is in both sides interests to compromise on and achieve a win - win result .

I don't buy the chest thumping from either side pre trade deal talks so that's one aspect of these so called economic experts who seem to dismiss the result of a trade deal out of hand .

For all both you and I know a favourable deal could be struck .

The Germans and the French are already fighting like rats in a sack as to who is going to take up the slack minus our substantial financial contribution so it ain't the greatest idea in the world to knock us out of the trade game and the economic benefit to those two big hitters still left propping up the other 25 countries .

If I put my name or vote to something I go all the way Billy and I stand by my actions .

I did 12 months on strike in 84/85 with a 3 month old baby and a mortgage and didn't back away from what I believed in despite the desperation .

I walked away from thousands in redundancy because I wasn't getting talked down to by gaffers post strike because they knew we'd emptied our gun and I certainly wasn't working alongside scabs either who'd fecked us over , I left mining with nothing pal and I'd still go on strike today for 12 months if I believed in something like I did back then .

I had a vote in the referendum and I voted in what I personally believe to be right and no amount of bitter loser rhetoric will change me .

[Not Now Kato]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
 

[Not Now Kato]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop  paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy

But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do.  FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.

Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.

Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .

You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .

" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "

What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?

If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .

" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "

Emily Thornberry .

Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?

I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .

You may want to revisit that one Mandy .

The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .

Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .

It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .

At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .

It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .

You're wasting your time with them Tyke. They just don't get why Labour got slaughtered, and they'd been continuously warned on here that there'd be a day of reckoning for the betrayal on Brexit, and for the constant snipes, sneers, and insults, and yet they're still at it.

They couldn't see the amount of anger among Northern Leave voters, and they think that Keir Starmer is the man to reconcile them. Really?

Then again when the Labour Party ends at Watford these days what can you expect Steve .

Little wonder London loves immigration and the heart and soul of the Labour Party , the immigrants live in poverty and do the shyte jobs whilst the white Brit pulls in over 100k a year and doesn't have to wait more than two minutes for a train anywhere he wants .

Meanwhile up here it's slightly different , something that seems to escape the party who is supposedly on our side .

Which isn't to say I'm a working class Tory because I'd die before voting for them and they are simply using their new found vote for their own means to an end .

Vastly becoming politically homeless and I'm a bloke who was arrested and fined a massive amount of money at the Poll Tax demo in London in 1990 and the working class cause .

I wonder why I even bothered with this set of shytehouses who supposedly have my interests at heart .

[tyke1962]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .

I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!

The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .

There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .

As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .

You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .

Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .

I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .

The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .

Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .

Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .

You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .

Thankfully we were given that opportunity .

Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off!  Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail.  No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!

Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .

No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .

Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .

[SydneyRover]

I think most do get it Steve, labour should have had a clear no-brexit message, I think that most are stunned that even though labour were out spent and undermined in the vote and election many opted for self destruction in an act of defiance. Most of what's wrong with the economy and the country is down to the last 10 years so what happens? another 5 years.

I respect that everyone has their own vote to do with as they wish, did you vote? but to keep voting for ones oppressor shows signs of Stockholm Syndrome.

That racism whipped up by farage and the yellow press has had a big hand in where the country is at present is a very low point, reading about it in sport, about the man that starved to death about windrush etc shows me the country (not everyone) has not moved on nor grown comfortable with changes in decades. Sad does not cover this and unfortunately it not just Britain, there it institutionalised racism towards Australia's own 'royal' family and almost every other country suffers it too.

Unfortunately for whatever reason, those that voted for brexit and and then against labour have voted for a continuation of a poorer country and not just in monetary terms and a grossly unfair country, this may just be a byproduct of their intentions but it cannot be ignored.

Taking back control is looking just the opposite from where I'm sitting and instead of reaping the rewards of a better distribution of spoils into the north gained via the EU  and building strength to be able to change the EU from within you now have the richest trading bloc on your doorstep with no representation and no rights and are going to get charged a hefty admission fee per visit, either way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

No matter what trade deal we get with the EU, it will be worse for our economy that what we are leaving behind. If you don't agree with that, show me some evidence to back up your belief.

What you did or didn't do in the 1980s is admirable. But it doesn't change that fact that what you did in 2016 was to allow yourself to be used in a far-right coup. The Brexit vote was only ever about sorting out the civil war in the Tory party. Your vote helped the right wing to win it. You may well have had the very best of intentions, but that was the practical outcome.

Face up to that and maybe we will make some progress.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And Tyke.

This time last year, Labour had a clear and unambiguous policy to support Brexit. Go and look at what Corbyn was saying then. It's crystal clear. He'd had an interview in the Observer where he'd said that his policy was to push for an Election and to go into it supporting Brexit.

Do you recall what the consequence of that was?

In December 2018, Labour were pushing 40% in the polls. By June 2019, they hit 18%.

Go figure out why. And then stop and think why you're spending so much time fighting people on your general side.

[tyke1962]

And Tyke.

This time last year, Labour had a clear and unambiguous policy to support Brexit. Go and look at what Corbyn was saying then. It's crystal clear. He'd had an interview in the Observer where he'd said that his policy was to push for an Election and to go into it supporting Brexit.

Do you recall what the consequence of that was?

In December 2018, Labour were pushing 40% in the polls. By June 2019, they hit 18%.

Go figure out why. And then stop and think why you're spending so much time fighting people on your general side.

Billy whilst you support a neoliberal project and free movement of cheap Labour you ain't on my general side and you never will be .

We are where we are as a consequence as Labour men .

The election result is the adjudicator , the electorate are never wrong .

Polls from way back when aren't relevant and you are intelligent enough to surely realise that .

The left of the 70's and 80's were massively anti EU and with good reason , Tony Benn was nobody's fool .

The left of today well you tell me what they are ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So let me get this right.

Polls from 7 mo this ago are worthless. But opinions from 50 years ago are sacrosanct?

You been on the pop Tyke?

[tyke1962]

So let me get this right.

Polls from 7 mo this ago are worthless. But opinions from 50 years ago are sacrosanct?

You been on the pop Tyke?

You are talking about opinion polls Billy and I'm talking about the left wing and fundamental principles .

The left and the trade union movement robustly opposed the EU .

And today .........

Sold out Billy , the London political bubble perhaps ?

Who knows .

Many blame Thatcherism for the loss of working class solidarity but take a good look at the left of today who've sleep walked in to the globalisation narrative .

Now you tell me who got done like a kipper as you like to point the finger at with leavers .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ok Tyke. I see the fault line between us.

You are an idealist who wants the world to be as it should be.

I'm a pragmatist who wants to make the best of the world as it is.

You laud Benn. I despise him.

I don't despise him for what he wanted the world to be. I agreed with him in that

I despise him because in his obsession that he was right, he destroyed the Labour party as a credible electoral force. And in doing that, he let Thatcher off the leash.

Give me 1 Wilson who held the Labour party together and was hated by the Left, over 100 of Benn, who was all principle and no f**king practicality.

It's the same with the EU.

You see it as an enemy because it's not avowedly socialist.

I see it as a friend because it blunts the worst excesses of unfettered Capitalism.

Like I say, I'm a pragmatist. I want more people to have better lives. Your vote in 2016, made with the best of intentions, is going to lead to a lot more people having a lot worse lives.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.

The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.

If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.

[SydneyRover]

There is something that keeps sticking its head up in this debate from time to time from various quarters that I can't get my head around (not unusual) which is ''wot the labour party did to me'' 5-10-15-20-25-30-40-50 or more years ago which appears to translate to ''I can never forgive them because ....... and I now vote x-y-z or not at all''

I can see how a short term ''I'll pay the f**kers back for this'' can be good for retribution, self respect even or wotever but long term? really? you'd rather enable those that don't give a shit whether you live or die?

To put it in 'Rovers' terms no matter whats gone on in the past and as fans of this club we've had just about everything thrown at us over the decades here we all are supporting the club and yet the only thing that is the same or similar now as a hundred years ago is that the team plays in Doncaster. Very few have said f**k it I'm off to support R*therham or Sh*ffield 


Added:

I will temper my comment a little following a re-read to say that yes you may have a good local member of the party that looks after your needs and works hard for the community but look at the top end of all the parties and think who you would want in your corner when you need genuine and real help, look at their records. Look at the tory cabinet and ask yourself if you see any of them coming to your rescue?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .

Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .

73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .

Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .

To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .

To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .

People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .

The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .

We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .

You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .

The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .

The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .

You're missing the point here Tyke.  No one is fighting the 2016 referendum.  That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU.  What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did.  Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic.  They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
 
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU.  To date, their silence has been deafening.  Do you have one?

Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop  paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy

But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do.  FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!

NNK

Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.

Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year

EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.

Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU

The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?

The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?

So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers.  And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Hang on.

You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.

Well for a start there's a trade deal to negotiate which clearly is in both sides interests to compromise on and achieve a win - win result .

I don't buy the chest thumping from either side pre trade deal talks so that's one aspect of these so called economic experts who seem to dismiss the result of a trade deal out of hand .

For all both you and I know a favourable deal could be struck .

The Germans and the French are already fighting like rats in a sack as to who is going to take up the slack minus our substantial financial contribution so it ain't the greatest idea in the world to knock us out of the trade game and the economic benefit to those two big hitters still left propping up the other 25 countries .

If I put my name or vote to something I go all the way Billy and I stand by my actions .

I did 12 months on strike in 84/85 with a 3 month old baby and a mortgage and didn't back away from what I believed in despite the desperation .

I walked away from thousands in redundancy because I wasn't getting talked down to by gaffers post strike because they knew we'd emptied our gun and I certainly wasn't working alongside scabs either who'd fecked us over , I left mining with nothing pal and I'd still go on strike today for 12 months if I believed in something like I did back then .

I had a vote in the referendum and I voted in what I personally believe to be right and no amount of bitter loser rhetoric will change me .

And let’s not forget...the European Community wholeheartedly and actively supported the Tory Governments pit closure plan in the 1990’s. They also facilitated the negotiations for the UK to purchase coal from European countries as part of the road map to Eastern European countries becoming members.