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Tyke.You say you don't care what type of Leave we have, as long as we Leave?So. Would you have been happy with a Norway type deal?Just a yes or no. No need for a thesis.
There is another, unsettling thing that comes out of your last post Tyke.There's a touch of egomania. It's all about you and your opinions and views.Do you consider it possible that other people were...let's say, persuaded into voting Leave when Farage said that we'd end up in an EEA/Norway type position after the vote? When Hannan said "No one, absolutely no-one is suggesting we leave the Single Market"?Do you think that it undermines your argument that the vote was sacrosanct, when those people deliberately and systematically set out to deceive voters?
Ok. Now we are getting somewhere.See. Norway isn't in the EU. So we could have a deal like Norway and still have left the EU.But that wouldn't have been acceptable to you.And yet. That ballot paper. You was it was crystal clear and unambiguous, what it meant.Do you understand why I'm having trouble joining the dots here?
I don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?It said Remain or Leave.You said that was crystal clear. Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 01, 2020, 09:38:55 pmI don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?It said Remain or Leave.You said that was crystal clear. Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.No you asked me a hypothetical question about a Norway style agreement and I provided an answer as to what my view was on that arrangement , as far as I'm aware no such narrative exists and is probably unlikely to do so going forward with future EU negotiations which makes it hypothetical .What part of LEAVE the EU doesn't convert to independence free of the EU in it's entirety ?As in what part of REMAIN doesn't mean full alignment with the EU ?You know we can play this game till the cows come home so as to fuel your view that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your view is wrong .As for myself it really is pretty straightforward , Leave won and so they are right because democracy dictates that they are both judge and jury , the same as it did in 1975 and every referendum or GE ever held in this country and the way I would have seen it if Remain had won .It really is that simple .I'm from left wing stock Billy , is it an electable flavour as far as the country is concerned , not in a million years .So that makes us wrong and the electorate right , I have to compromise to keep the Tories out and we work with what we have or we die .I tend to sleep rather better with a Labour government in power despite them not exactly filling me with joy most of the time but it's still preferable to those feckers .That's how I see it , not saying I'm right but I'm comfortable in my own skin with it .We only have one vote each and who is right or wrong is decided by others .On the referendum in 2016 I'm right and you are wrong because more people ticked my box than they did yours .It's as simple as that .
But it WASN'T hypothetical in 2016 was it? It was relentlessly rammed down our throats as the Brexit of choice.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwi6zM7b__nnAhUXQkEAHRRlAxUQwqsBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72bAnd then immediately after the vote, a Norway deal was called, by the very same people, a betrayal of the Will of the People.THAT is why I was in favour of a confirmatory referendum. To clarify whether the UK people actually did want the Brexit finally on offer. Forgive me if I get arsey being lectured to by the likes of you about not having respect for people, when you are on the side of far right spivs who deliberately and knowingly lied to people during the referendum campaign.You see my point?
Quote from: tyke1962 on March 01, 2020, 10:21:54 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 01, 2020, 09:38:55 pmI don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?It said Remain or Leave.You said that was crystal clear. Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.No you asked me a hypothetical question about a Norway style agreement and I provided an answer as to what my view was on that arrangement , as far as I'm aware no such narrative exists and is probably unlikely to do so going forward with future EU negotiations which makes it hypothetical .What part of LEAVE the EU doesn't convert to independence free of the EU in it's entirety ?As in what part of REMAIN doesn't mean full alignment with the EU ?You know we can play this game till the cows come home so as to fuel your view that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your view is wrong .As for myself it really is pretty straightforward , Leave won and so they are right because democracy dictates that they are both judge and jury , the same as it did in 1975 and every referendum or GE ever held in this country and the way I would have seen it if Remain had won .It really is that simple .I'm from left wing stock Billy , is it an electable flavour as far as the country is concerned , not in a million years .So that makes us wrong and the electorate right , I have to compromise to keep the Tories out and we work with what we have or we die .I tend to sleep rather better with a Labour government in power despite them not exactly filling me with joy most of the time but it's still preferable to those feckers .That's how I see it , not saying I'm right but I'm comfortable in my own skin with it .We only have one vote each and who is right or wrong is decided by others .On the referendum in 2016 I'm right and you are wrong because more people ticked my box than they did yours .It's as simple as that .Independence free of the EU in its entirety means no trade deal, or indeed any other deal of co-operation.
A thought on ages and the referendum. The "youth", that would likely have voted to remain in the EEC given the result in 75 would have been the "elders" that voted to leave this time round. With age comes wisdom, dont count on today's youth keeping the same opinions
Tyke.Because the EEC/EC/EU did away with more and more barriers to trade. Which was its purpose. And in getting rid of those barriers, the corollary was that we had to have more common standards.That's not an evil scheme to trap us all. It's made the continent richer, more integrated and safer than it has ever been.
TykeYou're setting up straw men constantly.I have no axe to grind for the EU's performance since the GFC. If you want to have some fun, go back through the archives here and see what I was saying on the subject a decade ago.The Eurozone made some fundamental and very serious economic mistakes in their economic policy. And yes, as a result, they are a lot less well off than they should be.But that is irrelevant to this discussion. They are still some of the richest and most productive people on the planet. There's half a billion of them. Right on our doorstep. Gravity trade theory (which is one of THE best established of economic principles says that trade is ALWAYS easier with partners who are closer. We have just decided to erect barriers to that market.And I assume you saw the figures yesterday? That decision is going to drop our GDP by 4-8%. £90-180bn per year. Lost.And the best result of a trade deal with the USA will be a boost of 0.22% to GDP. £4bn per year.Don't try and spin Brexit as some economic opportunity. It's a f**king disaster. The only uncertainty is whether it will be a really REALLY big f**king disaster or just a really big one.I know you don't believe that, but, frankly, your opinions on that are not really worth much because they aren't based on analysis. They are based on what you want to be true. I take mine from the analyses of economists who actually do this for a living and get this shit right.