This isn't the Brexit I voted for (part 2)...

[SydneyRover]

Sorry Tyke this is where you and I diverge Farage is all about Farage. if he'd had spent the same energy calling out the tories the UK would be in a better place, the tories are doing and have done far more damage to Britain than the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?

In your own time Tyke.

When you're ready.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So Tyke, you wanted Labour to be led by the sort of person who stood proudly in front of an anti-immigrant poster that deliberately echoed Nazi propaganda from the 1930s?

And you claim to be a socialist?

[tyke1962]

Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?

In your own time Tyke.

When you're ready.

I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .

http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/

[tyke1962]

So Tyke, you wanted Labour to be led by the sort of person who stood proudly in front of an anti-immigrant poster that deliberately echoed Nazi propaganda from the 1930s?

And you claim to be a socialist?

Oh dear Billy , I thought you had rather more oil in your  lamp than bring some straw to the table .

Read my post regarding Farage again and highlight where I have said what you accuse me of .

In your own time of course .

[BillyStubbsTears]

You said you wanted a Labour Farage. The only thing you criticised about him was his banking background (which is wrong - his background was in the commodities markets).

Personally, I find his continued lying, his racism and his borderline treason to me more concerning. But you never mentioned any of those. I wouldn't want a person like Farage within a million miles of any party I supported.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?

In your own time Tyke.

When you're ready.

I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .

http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/

Right.

And what coercive action has the EU ever taken against any country for not sticking to the Excessive Deficit Procedure since the Global Financial Crash?

[tyke1962]

You said you wanted a Labour Farage. The only thing you criticised about him was his banking background (which is wrong - his background was in the commodities markets).

Personally, I find his continued lying, his racism and his borderline treason to me more concerning. But you never mentioned any of those. I wouldn't want a person like Farage within a million miles of any party I supported.

What I said was that the leave argument in the Labour Movement needed to be made by a strong and charismatic character such as Farage who has consistently called out the EU and attempted to make them accountable .

Absolutely nothing more than that , I'm surprised I'm having to explain it to you .

[tyke1962]

Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?

In your own time Tyke.

When you're ready.

I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .

http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/

Right.

And what coercive action has the EU ever taken against any country for not sticking to the Excessive Deficit Procedure since the Global Financial Crash?

The action for not bringing down the debt to what the EU deem to be acceptable is yet more austerity until it's done .

If it takes 20 years then it seems to me you'll see 20 years of austerity , I'd imagine the severity of austerity could well be increased to speed up the process .

I'd suggest one year of austerity is one year too many personally given there are other models that attempt to tackle national debt .

[BillyStubbsTears]

And I'll say again. What sanction is the EU actually applying? Given that, when countries have not brought down their deficit as planned, they haven't been fined.

[tyke1962]

And I'll say again. What sanction is the EU actually applying? Given that, when countries have not brought down their deficit as planned, they haven't been fined.

Billy has your Euro pant wetting really come to this as a man of the Labour Movement .

I say Labour Movement but I'm beginning to wonder to tell the truth .

So because there are no fines that implies that the EU haven't the control over these nation states I say they have ?

That's the gist of what I'm reading from yourself , tell me if I'm wrong of course .

How is it possible that you robustly oppose Tory austerity and yet stand behind the EU who drive this policy and give it the " Nothing To See Here " opinion ? .

How absolutely hypocritical do you want to look Billy ? .

We were warned by more political brains in the 70's than you will ever see today about the consequences of EU membership and it's impact on working people in this country and by god they were right .

The real tragedy is people such as yourself were taken in by the Brussels project and you sold your heart and soul to it within the Labour Movement .

Something you'll do very well to come back from around these heartlands and without these heartlands you have nothing .

The truth is its cost you your much admired EU membership and about as far away from government as it's possible to be in a two party fight .

And yet you still defend the EU on a number of levels , austerity seems to be the latest .

Yes I will hold you to account , it's not personal but it is what it is as you seem to want to hold leavers to account which is fair enough .

You are wrong Billy , the referendum and the last GE says you are .

[SydneyRover]

Further to my look at Greece, Tyke it appears overall that they borrowed swags of money while cheap with no thought as to how to pay it back. When the GFC hit like almost every other country it was in a poor position to do anything about it.

As I stated before there were few options if they wanted a bailout the main one being to go back to the drachma which no one in Greece  wanted.

The original bailout loan terms were harsh and eased slightly when a new Greek government took the reins with negotiations from the lenders. In return for the bailout these pledges were agreed to by the gov't, which had they been in place all along they wouldn't have been in so much trouble.

Key points: Greece economic pledges to Europe

Tax policies
Broaden the definition of tax fraud and evasion, making it harder to avoid taxes
Improve the collection of VAT, fighting evasion using technology
Create "a new culture of tax compliance" to make sure that all sections of society - particularly the wealthy - "contribute fairly to the financing of public policies"
Work with European and international partners to establish a database that helps tax authorities assess the veracity of previous income tax returns
Andrew Walker: Improving tax collection has been a persistent theme in the discussions between Greece and its bailout lenders. It's an area where it's easy to see a shared view between the two sides. The idea of getting the well-off to contribute to the financing of public policies is right in line with Syriza's wider agenda. Anything that brings in more revenue and so helps stabilise the government finances is likely to be welcome to the lenders as well. Creating a new culture of tax compliance is a bit "motherhood and apple pie". Who could object? But it will take a long time to achieve.

Public spending
Work towards improving the efficiency of central and local government departments
Identify cost-saving measures through a thorough spending review of every ministry, reorganising non-salary and non-pension expenditures which account for "an astounding 56% of total public expenditure"
Use cross-checking to validate benefits to "help identify non-eligible beneficiaries"
Control health expenditure and improve medical services, while granting universal access to healthcare

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31599838

I think you could safely say that being part of the EU has helped Greece overall, the 'cure' has been harsh but better than being declared bankrupt I would have thought.

[bpoolrover]

This thread is a great read on both sides,what is obvious is tyke asks a question and only gets half a answer would love bst and Sydney to answer his questions on the eu and austerity ect.

[SydneyRover]

This thread is a great read on both sides,what is obvious is tyke asks a question and only gets half a answer would love bst and Sydney to answer his questions on the eu and austerity ect.

You could of course answer it yourself bp?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BP.

I'll willingly answer.

The root cause of the problems that Italy, Greece and others got into are complex, and tied to the flawed concept of the Euro.

Having a single currency means that you have a single interest rate for the entire zone. That is supposed to encourage all parts of that zone to synchronise their economic approaches.

But that never happened.

In the run up to the start of the Euro, and the way days if the Euro, Germany had a struggling economy. They had inflation and demand that were too low. That was balanced by inflation and demand being too high through southern Europe. In simple terms, Italy and Greece were the market for Germany.

And that is how it's supposed to work with a single currency. Peaks and troughs balance out. Germany saves (because people aren't spending much). Greece runs up debts (people are living beyond their means). Each of those would.m be a big problem on its own. But in a shared currency zone, they balance out.

The problem came with the GFC.

Then the debt markets got scared that Greece's debt wasn't sustainable.

And NOW the flaw in the Euro came out.  The way you'd deal with debt if you have your own currency is to devalue imtge currency. That sets of inflation and it effectively reduces the value of your debt. Your creditors aren't happy but it's their fault for not doing their due dilligence.

But Greece couldn't do that, because they didn't control the value of the Euro.

In a common currency, what SHOUKD happen is that everyone is responsible for everyone's debt. They all cover it. So, in the UK, we in Doncaster don't pay our way. We consume more than we make. And we are subsidised by London.

That mechanism wasn't there in the Euro. So Greece had no way out.

The eventual solution wasnimposed by Germany NOT by the EU. It was for Northern European banks to lend Greece the money to cover their debts, but in the understanding that Greece would get its debt under control by MASSIVE austerity. And I mean massive. I know if public sector workers whose salaries were cut by a quarter in a year.

There WAS a balance to that which should have happened. Just as Greece had overspent in the 1990s and given Germany a market, so now Germany should have overspent and given Greece a market to help them out.  Germany should have run a mild deficit and let money pour into the Greek economy. There should have been more Germans having expensive holidays in Zante. More investment in hi tech Greek start ups.

But that never happened, because Germany is obsessive about inflation.

THERE is the problem of European austerity. A flawed concept of the Euro, aligned to obsessive fear of inflation from the right wing Govt that is in power in Germany.

Both of those features have absolutely zero to do with OUR relationship with the EU. We are not in the Euro. Our economic policy is not directed by German Ordoliberal economics.

That enough to be going on with?

[tyke1962]

BP.

I'll willingly answer.

The root cause of the problems that Italy, Greece and others got into are complex, and tied to the flawed concept of the Euro.

Having a single currency means that you have a single interest rate for the entire zone. That is supposed to encourage all parts of that zone to synchronise their economic approaches.

But that never happened.

In the run up to the start of the Euro, and the way days if the Euro, Germany had a struggling economy. They had inflation and demand that were too low. That was balanced by inflation and demand being too high through southern Europe. In simple terms, Italy and Greece were the market for Germany.

And that is how it's supposed to work with a single currency. Peaks and troughs balance out. Germany saves (because people aren't spending much). Greece runs up debts (people are living beyond their means). Each of those would.m be a big problem on its own. But in a shared currency zone, they balance out.

The problem came with the GFC.

Then the debt markets got scared that Greece's debt wasn't sustainable.

And NOW the flaw in the Euro came out.  The way you'd deal with debt if you have your own currency is to devalue imtge currency. That sets of inflation and it effectively reduces the value of your debt. Your creditors aren't happy but it's their fault for not doing their due dilligence.

But Greece couldn't do that, because they didn't control the value of the Euro.

In a common currency, what SHOUKD happen is that everyone is responsible for everyone's debt. They all cover it. So, in the UK, we in Doncaster don't pay our way. We consume more than we make. And we are subsidised by London.

That mechanism wasn't there in the Euro. So Greece had no way out.

The eventual solution wasnimposed by Germany NOT by the EU. It was for Northern European banks to lend Greece the money to cover their debts, but in the understanding that Greece would get its debt under control by MASSIVE austerity. And I mean massive. I know if public sector workers whose salaries were cut by a quarter in a year.

There WAS a balance to that which should have happened. Just as Greece had overspent in the 1990s and given Germany a market, so now Germany should have overspent and given Greece a market to help them out.  Germany should have run a mild deficit and let money pour into the Greek economy. There should have been more Germans having expensive holidays in Zante. More investment in hi tech Greek start ups.

But that never happened, because Germany is obsessive about inflation.

THERE is the problem of European austerity. A flawed concept of the Euro, aligned to obsessive fear of inflation from the right wing Govt that is in power in Germany.

Both of those features have absolutely zero to do with OUR relationship with the EU. We are not in the Euro. Our economic policy is not directed by German Ordoliberal economics.

That enough to be going on with?

The EU have put the UK on Excessive Debt Procedure three times Billy .

In 2008 they gave us 6 months to reduce our debt at a rate of their choosing and have continued to monitor our progress and set us targets again of their choosing .

We don't have the Euro here .

[BillyStubbsTears]

And I'll say again Tyke. What have they done to enforce that.

Back in 2008, we said "Yes, whatever" and ignored it.

[wilts rover]

I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.

But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.

[tyke1962]

I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.

But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.

You'll do well Wilts to rewrite history with someone of my age and trade union background .

The old left were against the common market and EEC from the outset , Tony Benn and the trade unions stood alongside Enoch Powell at the 1975 referendum .

I haven't moved one inch on the matter but the left of today if you can call them that are the ones who have sold out to the EU project .

On the house of lords point let me put it this way to you , how would you feel about a right wing Tory government and an 80 seat majority with Boris Johnson as PM and nobody marking their homework ? .

Let's be pragmatic about this and ditch the class warfare shall we .

You might want to think about why Johnson wants rid of em if he could get his way .

[tyke1962]

And I'll say again Tyke. What have they done to enforce that.

Back in 2008, we said "Yes, whatever" and ignored it.

Billy .

The EU have the power to fine members of the EU billions of Euros if they don't comply with their excessive debt procedure plan which are exclusively on their terms it seems .

They threatened Italy with a €3bn fine in 2018 if they didn't do as they were told .

Just because a gun doesn't get fired don't mistake it for weakness , the fact that the EU have the gun fully loaded is enough to for them to dictate economic policy on a nation state .

[wilts rover]

I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.

But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.

You'll do well Wilts to rewrite history with someone of my age and trade union background .

The old left were against the common market and EEC from the outset , Tony Benn and the trade unions stood alongside Enoch Powell at the 1975 referendum .

I haven't moved one inch on the matter but the left of today if you can call them that are the ones who have sold out to the EU project .

On the house of lords point let me put it this way to you , how would you feel about a right wing Tory government and an 80 seat majority with Boris Johnson as PM and nobody marking their homework ? .

Let's be pragmatic about this and ditch the class warfare shall we .

You might want to think about why Johnson wants rid of em if he could get his way .

The same reason he campaigned for Brexit tyke, the same reason...