Trump and democracy

[Glyn_Wigley]

74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting Labour

I think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPk

[BillyStubbsTears]

I know several high level professionals from both Govt and private industry in the south of the USA. Many of them, right up to last autumn were saying they were voting for Trump because they discounted the brash, obnoxiousness and thought he was better for the economy.

I've been gobsmacked to hear that they ignored the Russian collusion and the illegality. I've not had a chance to catch up with them about their opinion following the storming of the Capitol, but if they are still Trump supporters after that, America is in a hell of a hole.

[tyke1962]

Glyn.

Exactly.

Biden and Sanders were discussing a role for Sanders in Biden's cabinet. They decided that Sanders was better remaining in the Senate and giving the Democrats control, than risking losing a by-election.

Tyke. I've asked before. What exactly do you think a left-leaning politician can do to attract voters who voted for a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist?

Specific policies.

Two of my recommendations would be to reform The Senate which is clearly an undemocratic body , just exactly how do the Republicans have 50 Senators as do the Democrats yet the Democrats represent 41 million more people ? .

Some small hick town southern republican stronghold speaks for the US apparently .

Its a remarkable coincidence but every time I see a lack of democracy I see neoliberal tentacles , something I've mentioned previously with regards to the EU .

High time someone had the balls to call out the tech companies on misinformation , lies and fake news , this is clearly a huge part in fueling the Trumps of this world .

With those two in the bag you have half a chance of tackling inequality and improving lives for the less well off .

I can't provide specific policies Billy because unless you start limiting the impact the stay as we are neoliberal factions then policies are unlikely to see the light of day .

Which leads me straight to the bought democracy angle , big business , party funding and lobbying , again the man in the street doesn't have a voice and yet he is the vast majority of the electorate .

A programme of reform must happen and as I say it's time the neoliberalists were cut down to size and sensible capitalism replaced it .

If these kind of reforms don't happen then there's only one option left , the same kind of option that was played out in France in the 1700's or Russia at the beginning of the last century .

I'm deadly serious by the way , this will happen if change isn't forthcoming .

Biden needs make an impact and make neoliberals the enemy and not the black man , whether he or his party have the will is perhaps debatable .

Obama oversaw the loss of a million manufacturing jobs in the US during his administration so you'll have to excuse my scepticism Billy .

[ravenrover]

74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting Labour

I think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPk

So you are telling me that all 74m actually voted for Trump the individual rather than him being the Republican candidate?

[BillyStubbsTears]

reform The Senate which is clearly an undemocratic body , just exactly how do the Republicans have 50 Senators as do the Democrats yet the Democrats represent 41 million more people ?

Tyke.

Aye. Grand. Me, I'd quite like Alicia Vikander to demand my participation in working out her erotic frustrations, but there's a problem trying to sort out the mechanism by which that happens.

[Glyn_Wigley]

74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting Labour

I think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPk

So you are telling me that all 74m actually voted for Trump the individual rather than him being the Republican candidate?

No, listen to the opinions of those who voted for Trump in that video and then say it's as simple as just switching from one party to the other.

[tyke1962]

reform The Senate which is clearly an undemocratic body , just exactly how do the Republicans have 50 Senators as do the Democrats yet the Democrats represent 41 million more people ?

Tyke.

Aye. Grand. Me, I'd quite like Alicia Vikander to demand my participation in working out her erotic frustrations, but there's a problem trying to sort out the mechanism by which that happens.

Just a sample of the good people on Fox News with regard to raising taxes for the super wealthy .

Quickly cut down to size mind but you hardly hear of these kind of retorts .

Something once again that needs to change , the Democrats have the microphone in their hand .

I'd kindly suggest they make good use of it .

Propaganda works two ways and in this climate now would be the perfect time .

Unless the Democrats are happy to acknowledge that the top 650 US billionaires have increased their wealth by $3.5tn since the start of the pandemic whilst 24 million US workers have lost their jobs .

Worth 10 minutes of your time .


https://youtu.be/pnoLAMHwf2I

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You are very passionate in your assertion that the Democrats are in hock to the rich. You DO know that the last two Democrat Presidents both raised the top tax rates?

[scawsby steve]

BB. It is nothing like that. That is a very poor comparison for reasons I've explained several times before, but you keep on making it.

1) In Britain you don't vote for a PM. You vote for a party. The PM's freedom to implement policy is constrained by what he can get through Parliament. The Labour party MPs would have highly constrained the freedom of a PM Corbyn, because most of them vehemently disagreed with his foreign policy in particular.

That is not the case in the USA. You vote for a President who has huge executive powers, especially on foreign policy. There is far less constraint on him.

2) Then you look at the choice in an election. I've said before that the choice of which PM was going to be in power in 2019 was the worst in living memory. Even if you accept your caricature of Corbyn, the alternative was a career compulsive liar who was committed to what most people on the Left consider to be the most damaging policy to Britain's economic and foreign position in centuries. And whose party is in hoc to Russian gangster funding.

In America, the choice was between a competent if dull centrist politician (who isn't a paedophile, despite the obsessions of some on the Right) and a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist. And 74 million still voted for the latter.

Tyke is wanting the centre-Left in America to win the hearts of those 74million. I'm asking him how? Personally, if, given the choice between Trump and Biden, they chose Trump, I do not see anything that a centre-Left party can do to ever win more than a handful of them back. The aim must be to neutralise their political effect by energising the 81million who rejected him. Get sensible politics back. And slowly let the demographic shift make a return to Trump's fascism become impossible.

If, as you say, Trump's supporters don't believe he is
a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist, despite all the evidence, they are beyond reasoning with. And trying to reason with them is a fool's errand. They need to be contained, not understood, so they never wreak this damage on America again.

I find that last paragraph well below your usual level of intellect and reasoning, BST. The USA is now as hopelessly divided as it was in the Civil War, and you're suggesting it's OK for this to continue, as long as one side is physically suppressed from causing damage.

The irony is that your last sentence is in itself very Trumpian. I certainly don't think Joe Biden would agree with it, in his stated quest for reconciliation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

I didn't say anything about physical suppression.

[scawsby steve]

SS.

I didn't say anything about physical suppression.

Then how else would you contain them, seeing as most of them are armed?

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You are very passionate in your assertion that the Democrats are in hock to the rich. You DO know that the last two Democrat Presidents both raised the top tax rates?

I wouldn't go as far as to say in hock to the rich Billy but I'd kindly suggest they haven't done enough whilst in the White House ,

The US of today can't simply be laid at Trump's doorstep that's far too simplistic as in the demise of the Labour Party wasn't owned lock , stock and barrel by Corbyn .

Get in to bed with the neoliberal for a few terms in office on their terms seems to be where we are at , the classic sticking plaster on the gaping wound .

History tells me that men and women of far sterner stuff achieved far more .

Biden seems to be the calm the fcuk down people man whilst business goes on as normal in my opinion .

An interlude , let's cut to the commercials folks we'll be back in two minutes .

I'm beginning to think that there's only one option for the reset .................

When democracy isn't really democracy but simply a confidence trick then go figure where that historically goes .

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.
You contain them by continually confronting their ideas, disproving their falsehoods and prosecuting their illegality. You show the rest of the country that the people who condoned and supported Trump, even after he incited an insurrection, are the problem, not patriots to be looked to as an example.

You promote unity, for sure. But on the terms of them confirming to basic standards. Not by putting an arm round them and saying "We understand you."

Fundamentally, it is a war of ideas. You win that by showing every day that their ideas are foul and the people who have led them are criminal self-aggrandisers.

They'll die out, eventually. Look how many of the Insurrectionist have howled "I didn't expect to get arrested!" when the law has grabbed them. Nip them in the bud now and hold them up as examples, rather than going easy on them.

[tyke1962]

SS.
You contain them by continually confronting their ideas, disproving their falsehoods and prosecuting their illegality. You show the rest of the country that the people who condoned and supported Trump, even after he incited an insurrection, are the problem, not patriots to be looked to as an example.

You promote unity, for sure. But on the terms of them confirming to basic standards. Not by putting an arm round them and saying "We understand you."

Fundamentally, it is a war of ideas. You win that by showing every day that their ideas are foul and the people who have led them are criminal self-aggrandisers.

They'll die out, eventually. Look how many of the Insurrectionist have howled "I didn't expect to get arrested!" when the law has grabbed them. Nip them in the bud now and hold them up as examples, rather than going easy on them.

Yeh you can do that Billy and put them away for 10 years in the state penitentiary .

You could also look at this another way and look upon them as victims played by people unlikely to be brought to justice who used them to keep things as they are in the US .

I'm not suggesting for one minute they should escape justice by the way .

The Nuremberg trials following WW2 would be my approach if you take my meaning and in relative terms .

I wouldn't expect Trump , Rupert Murdoch or Tucker Carlson to take  cyanide to escape the gallows but that is where my focus would be and you finish them off as career neoliberals .

The red lines are redrawn , the same concept they adopted to finish Scargill and Corbyn as probably two standout left personalities as an example .

It would be a mistake to make martyrs of Trump and co in my opinion , even the tories and the establishment knew that with the above .

You cut the feckin head off the monster , the rest dies as a consequence .

This game can be played two ways Billy the only thing to be debated is the will of those currently in power in the US .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I'm not Mother Teresa.

In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving.

If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"

They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I'm not Mother Teresa.

In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving.

If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"

They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.

But that's not how historically you've rid a country of fascism is it Billy which in my opinion is pretty close to what Trump was relatively speaking .

Surely you build something better so there's absolutely no reason to go there again .

You lead by taking people with you , 74 million who voted for Trump is the issue not those who stormed the senate or who voted for Biden .

By not focusing on the real issue the next Trump is only four years away , a smarter more dangerous one perhaps .

The centre left may also want to consider a ruthless streak when it elects it's representatives instead of wet w@nks who run away and are willing to be just as dirty as the opponents they face .

The play is to convert the vast majority of Trump's 74 million and bury the feckers career wise who feed the frenzy .

Things are coming to a head in my opinion after over 40 years of neoliberlism , the stakes never higher .

[wilts rover]

Tyke.

I'm not Mother Teresa.

In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving.

If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"

They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.

But that's not how historically you've rid a country of fascism is it Billy which in my opinion is pretty close to what Trump was relatively speaking .

Surely you build something better so there's absolutely no reason to go there again .

You lead by taking people with you , 74 million who voted for Trump is the issue not those who stormed the senate or who voted for Biden .

By not focusing on the real issue the next Trump is only four years away , a smarter more dangerous one perhaps .

The centre left may also want to consider a ruthless streak when it elects it's representatives instead of wet w@nks who run away and are willing to be just as dirty as the opponents they face .

The play is to convert the vast majority of Trump's 74 million and bury the feckers career wise who feed the frenzy .

Things are coming to a head in my opinion after over 40 years of neoliberlism , the stakes never higher .

What you either forget or ignore Tyke is that for the vast majority of Trump supporters it is not neoliberlism they have a problem with.

It is no suprise that your time frame fits in with the civil rights movement and the massive changes thise brought to American society - and the people disliked this.

It is no suprise that Trump came to power immediately after America's first black president.

Trump did not create this mood in American society, it has been there since the Civil War and he was a big democratic donor in the 90's, but he and his billionaire backers saw how they could appeal to people who have this attitude to gain power.

Trump was a PR front for billionaire low tax, small state, low regulation, climate deniers to appeal to racists to gain power.

He might have gone, but they are still there and they aint changing anytime soon.

[ravenrover]

74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting Labour

I think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPk

So you are telling me that all 74m actually voted for Trump the individual rather than him being the Republican candidate?

No, listen to the opinions of those who voted for Trump in that video and then say it's as simple as just switching from one party to the other.

I never suggested  they change their support I just query the supposition that 74m Republican voters voted for Trump rather than just the Republican party

[SydneyRover]

Tyke.

I'm not Mother Teresa.

In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving.

If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"

They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.

But that's not how historically you've rid a country of fascism is it Billy which in my opinion is pretty close to what Trump was relatively speaking .

Surely you build something better so there's absolutely no reason to go there again .

You lead by taking people with you , 74 million who voted for Trump is the issue not those who stormed the senate or who voted for Biden .

By not focusing on the real issue the next Trump is only four years away , a smarter more dangerous one perhaps .

The centre left may also want to consider a ruthless streak when it elects it's representatives instead of wet w@nks who run away and are willing to be just as dirty as the opponents they face .

The play is to convert the vast majority of Trump's 74 million and bury the feckers career wise who feed the frenzy .

Things are coming to a head in my opinion after over 40 years of neoliberlism , the stakes never higher .

What you either forget or ignore Tyke is that for the vast majority of Trump supporters it is not neoliberlism they have a problem with.

It is no suprise that your time frame fits in with the civil rights movement and the massive changes thise brought to American society - and the people disliked this.

It is no suprise that Trump came to power immediately after America's first black president.

Trump did not create this mood in American society, it has been there since the Civil War and he was a big democratic donor in the 90's, but he and his billionaire backers saw how they could appeal to people who have this attitude to gain power.

Trump was a PR front for billionaire low tax, small state, low regulation, climate deniers to appeal to racists to gain power.

He might have gone, but they are still there and they aint changing anytime soon.

I would think that this is very close to the true picture of trumps rise to power not that he is short of ambition to fill his own pockets but as soon as he became a possibility there would be those more than willing fall in behind to ensure it happened. I would like to think that education would help but as has been said previously, where the hell would you start. It may be better to keep them on the margins and concentrate on getting the minority votes up the gerrymandering sorted along with suppression of voting rights and hope that the offspring of trump supporters are more susceptable to reason, I don't hold much hope for the latter.

[Filo]

If the Republicans in the Senate find Trump not guilty of inciting insurrection true democracy is dead in America and the Constitution becomes a joke

[ravenrover]

Start laughing now then Filo, those spineless Republicans will not convict him.

[Filo]

Start laughing now then Filo, those spineless Republicans will not convict him.

I agree, they don’t care less about the Constitution

[Dutch Uncle]

The link to substack article within this tweet is well worth a read, especially the Amendment 14 part at the end.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1359641124235866112

Direct link here:

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-conviction-of-trump-remains-a

[BillyStubbsTears]

If a President directly and unambiguously inciting people who had been openly talking about executing Senators to riot and storm the Capitol, and that does not result in the Senate upholding the impeachment, you kind of wonder what a President WOULD have to do.

[Filo]

If a President directly and unambiguously inciting people who had been openly talking about executing Senators to riot and storm the Capitol, and that does not result in the Senate upholding the impeachment, you kind of wonder what a President WOULD have to do.

I’m convinced that Trump could kill most of those Republican Senator’s family and they would still find him not Guilty. The evidence against Trump is overwhelming, this is a show of how much they care about their own party against how much they care about the Constitution

[Glyn_Wigley]

Start laughing now then Filo, those spineless Republicans will not convict him.

Especially now that Trump is going to be investigated (and almost certainly prosecuted) at state level. Because being found guilty at state level will get Trump out of the GOP's hair and their Congressmen will still be able to claim they didn't stab him in the back.

[SydneyRover]

Having a conviction doesn't bar a person from being president in the US.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Having a conviction doesn't bar a person from being president in the US.

A conviction (with almost certain jail time) for trying to nobble an election is reason enough for the GOP to tell him to bugger off and not come back.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Having a conviction doesn't bar a person from being president in the US.

A conviction (with almost certain jail time) for trying to nobble an election is reason enough for the GOP to tell him to bugger off and not come back.

But if the GOP supporters vote for him in primaries in 2024, it doesn't matter what the GOP top brass say.

And in any case, no-one wins the GOP nomination in 2024 without winning the support of the Trump supporters. Which is why Cruz and Rubio and the like are going to vote to exonerate a man who incited a mob to storm the Capitol, and why they will never criticise Trump.

[Not Now Kato]

This is worth 12 minutes of your time....
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWLBtMz5OuY&feature=youtu.be