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74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting Labour
Glyn.Exactly.Biden and Sanders were discussing a role for Sanders in Biden's cabinet. They decided that Sanders was better remaining in the Senate and giving the Democrats control, than risking losing a by-election. Tyke. I've asked before. What exactly do you think a left-leaning politician can do to attract voters who voted for a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist?Specific policies.
Quote from: ravenrover on January 22, 2021, 01:12:40 pm74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting LabourI think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPk
reform The Senate which is clearly an undemocratic body , just exactly how do the Republicans have 50 Senators as do the Democrats yet the Democrats represent 41 million more people ?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 22, 2021, 01:46:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on January 22, 2021, 01:12:40 pm74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting LabourI think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPkSo you are telling me that all 74m actually voted for Trump the individual rather than him being the Republican candidate?
Quotereform The Senate which is clearly an undemocratic body , just exactly how do the Republicans have 50 Senators as do the Democrats yet the Democrats represent 41 million more people ? Tyke.Aye. Grand. Me, I'd quite like Alicia Vikander to demand my participation in working out her erotic frustrations, but there's a problem trying to sort out the mechanism by which that happens.
BB. It is nothing like that. That is a very poor comparison for reasons I've explained several times before, but you keep on making it.1) In Britain you don't vote for a PM. You vote for a party. The PM's freedom to implement policy is constrained by what he can get through Parliament. The Labour party MPs would have highly constrained the freedom of a PM Corbyn, because most of them vehemently disagreed with his foreign policy in particular. That is not the case in the USA. You vote for a President who has huge executive powers, especially on foreign policy. There is far less constraint on him. 2) Then you look at the choice in an election. I've said before that the choice of which PM was going to be in power in 2019 was the worst in living memory. Even if you accept your caricature of Corbyn, the alternative was a career compulsive liar who was committed to what most people on the Left consider to be the most damaging policy to Britain's economic and foreign position in centuries. And whose party is in hoc to Russian gangster funding.In America, the choice was between a competent if dull centrist politician (who isn't a paedophile, despite the obsessions of some on the Right) and a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist. And 74 million still voted for the latter. Tyke is wanting the centre-Left in America to win the hearts of those 74million. I'm asking him how? Personally, if, given the choice between Trump and Biden, they chose Trump, I do not see anything that a centre-Left party can do to ever win more than a handful of them back. The aim must be to neutralise their political effect by energising the 81million who rejected him. Get sensible politics back. And slowly let the demographic shift make a return to Trump's fascism become impossible. If, as you say, Trump's supporters don't believe he is a criminal, treasonous, seditious, xenophobic rapist, despite all the evidence, they are beyond reasoning with. And trying to reason with them is a fool's errand. They need to be contained, not understood, so they never wreak this damage on America again.
SS.I didn't say anything about physical suppression.
Tyke.You are very passionate in your assertion that the Democrats are in hock to the rich. You DO know that the last two Democrat Presidents both raised the top tax rates?
SS.You contain them by continually confronting their ideas, disproving their falsehoods and prosecuting their illegality. You show the rest of the country that the people who condoned and supported Trump, even after he incited an insurrection, are the problem, not patriots to be looked to as an example.You promote unity, for sure. But on the terms of them confirming to basic standards. Not by putting an arm round them and saying "We understand you."Fundamentally, it is a war of ideas. You win that by showing every day that their ideas are foul and the people who have led them are criminal self-aggrandisers.They'll die out, eventually. Look how many of the Insurrectionist have howled "I didn't expect to get arrested!" when the law has grabbed them. Nip them in the bud now and hold them up as examples, rather than going easy on them.
Tyke.I'm not Mother Teresa.In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving. If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 23, 2021, 12:22:16 amTyke.I'm not Mother Teresa.In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving. If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.But that's not how historically you've rid a country of fascism is it Billy which in my opinion is pretty close to what Trump was relatively speaking .Surely you build something better so there's absolutely no reason to go there again .You lead by taking people with you , 74 million who voted for Trump is the issue not those who stormed the senate or who voted for Biden .By not focusing on the real issue the next Trump is only four years away , a smarter more dangerous one perhaps .The centre left may also want to consider a ruthless streak when it elects it's representatives instead of wet w@nks who run away and are willing to be just as dirty as the opponents they face .The play is to convert the vast majority of Trump's 74 million and bury the feckers career wise who feed the frenzy .Things are coming to a head in my opinion after over 40 years of neoliberlism , the stakes never higher .
Tyke.I'm not Mother Teresa.In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving. If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.
Quote from: ravenrover on January 22, 2021, 09:37:00 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 22, 2021, 01:46:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on January 22, 2021, 01:12:40 pm74m voted for a Republican President not necessarily for Trump as an individual. They couldn't bring themselves to vote Democrat, it's a bit like the old days in the North voting LabourI think you'll find it's a lot more complicated that simple statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPmcvCz6sPkSo you are telling me that all 74m actually voted for Trump the individual rather than him being the Republican candidate?No, listen to the opinions of those who voted for Trump in that video and then say it's as simple as just switching from one party to the other.
Quote from: tyke1962 on January 23, 2021, 12:56:58 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 23, 2021, 12:22:16 amTyke.I'm not Mother Teresa.In my opinion, anyone who has watched and listened to Trump these past 5 years, and thinks he's a patriot, the saviour of his people, a victim, a fighter for the little man or even remotely close to be honest and trustworthy is beyond saving. If you give them a better job and better prospects, they are not going to turn round and say "Gee! You were right all along! What i fool I've been!"They just need politically containing and neutralising until the toxicity dies away.But that's not how historically you've rid a country of fascism is it Billy which in my opinion is pretty close to what Trump was relatively speaking .Surely you build something better so there's absolutely no reason to go there again .You lead by taking people with you , 74 million who voted for Trump is the issue not those who stormed the senate or who voted for Biden .By not focusing on the real issue the next Trump is only four years away , a smarter more dangerous one perhaps .The centre left may also want to consider a ruthless streak when it elects it's representatives instead of wet w@nks who run away and are willing to be just as dirty as the opponents they face .The play is to convert the vast majority of Trump's 74 million and bury the feckers career wise who feed the frenzy .Things are coming to a head in my opinion after over 40 years of neoliberlism , the stakes never higher .What you either forget or ignore Tyke is that for the vast majority of Trump supporters it is not neoliberlism they have a problem with.It is no suprise that your time frame fits in with the civil rights movement and the massive changes thise brought to American society - and the people disliked this.It is no suprise that Trump came to power immediately after America's first black president.Trump did not create this mood in American society, it has been there since the Civil War and he was a big democratic donor in the 90's, but he and his billionaire backers saw how they could appeal to people who have this attitude to gain power.Trump was a PR front for billionaire low tax, small state, low regulation, climate deniers to appeal to racists to gain power.He might have gone, but they are still there and they aint changing anytime soon.
Start laughing now then Filo, those spineless Republicans will not convict him.
If a President directly and unambiguously inciting people who had been openly talking about executing Senators to riot and storm the Capitol, and that does not result in the Senate upholding the impeachment, you kind of wonder what a President WOULD have to do.
Having a conviction doesn't bar a person from being president in the US.
Quote from: SydneyRover on February 11, 2021, 09:00:29 pmHaving a conviction doesn't bar a person from being president in the US.A conviction (with almost certain jail time) for trying to nobble an election is reason enough for the GOP to tell him to bugger off and not come back.