No Brexit Extension

[wilts rover]

Posted without comment - although I like the comment at the end (good game this)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-transition-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-deal-eu-a9508136.html

[DonnyOsmond]

Smart from him really. He knows Brexit voters aren't keen on his anti-Brexit side, so he's not calling for an extension to keep them on side. It puts pressure on Boris, either we extend it and he looks weak to some Brexit voters or we crash out and he f**ks up the economy even more, which in the end won't look great.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Precisely DO.

This is party politics returning. I'm struggling to see what else Starmer could or should do other than to say to Johnson, "you cooked up this shit storm. You sit down and eat it and don't expect me to sort it out for you, or give you a target to chuck it at."

We are in a totally different world to where we were 18 months ago when there was a chance of forming a political alliance to let the (by then) actual opinion of the majority prevail. That's gone now. Brexit is going to happen. Those who wanted it and worked for it need to own the consequences.

That starts with Johnson. Good luck to him on pushing through a policy that will shave more big chunks off an economy that has already had its worst shock for 300 years.

Brexit belongs to him. He masterminded it. He can manage it.

[tyke1962]

Precisely DO.

This is party politics returning. I'm struggling to see what else Starmer could or should do other than to say to Johnson, "you cooked up this shit storm. You sit down and eat it and don't expect me to sort it out for you, or give you a target to chuck it at."

We are in a totally different world to where we were 18 months ago when there was a chance of forming a political alliance to let the (by then) actual opinion of the majority prevail. That's gone now. Brexit is going to happen. Those who wanted it and worked for it need to own the consequences.

That starts with Johnson. Good luck to him on pushing through a policy that will shave more big chunks off an economy that has already had its worst shock for 300 years.

Brexit belongs to him. He masterminded it. He can manage it.

Pretty much how I see it Billy , it's caused enough division in the Labour Party and it's right to let it go now .

Let's not get wrapped up in this thing .

[Not Now Kato]

Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU.  And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
 
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.

[tommy toes]

My thoughts exactly Kato.
In a perverse way he's 'lucky' he has the Covid excuse to fall back on

[IDM]

Don’t you think folks will remember all this bullshit next time a GE comes around.?

[SydneyRover]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU.  And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
 
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.

He'll find it a bit difficult to explain away why everybody else's economy recovers after Covid while ours continues to go down the toilet though. Because it'll be either Brexit to blame, or his management of Covid/the economy.

[IDM]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

[DonnyOsmond]

Even if Brexit was a failure would Brexit voters say it failed because of Boris or applaud him for giving them what they wanted?

[SydneyRover]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

Yep you're right the last election was certainly a mess of quite a few things with brexit front and centre.

Starmer is certainly not rushing headlong into it, I'm reminded of Paul Keating a very popular and witty labor PM that said to the then opposition leader ''I'm going to do you slowly''

[Donnywolf]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

I think Kier Starmer IS effective and totally genuine (as much as any politician can be more so than some). My worry is as with all opposition politicians he will be vilified for every tiny mistake / gaffe etc - and also he will have lost the bounce by the time the next GE rolls round and the electorate will have forgotten Coronavirus except for the annual street parties

I actually think B****t will never be over. The Tories (or half of them just never accepted we were part of it when we had a Referendum and converted our trial period to full blown Membership in the mid 70s and brought us to this point

So it is not beyond the bounds of possibility (almost certain imo) that a huge "movement" or grounswell of opinion will unite behind a notion or idea to rejoin at the very earliest opportunity. That will happen especially if people can see our "exit" has not gone well (and I make no judgements as I have no idea)

At that point the Politicians will have to again nail their colours to the mast and choose a path for their party and that is going to be problematic (if it happens) though as history shows Partys that were exposed and looked like they were never going to be in Government again ride out the storm and 5 or 10 years later heigh-ho they are re-elected.

So I dont think B****t will ever be totally over and just as an incoming Govt blames the last one for leaving the Country in a mess I can just imagine the B****t issue will be held up in the future as the moment things went wrong or it went right

[selby]

  This is where back stabber Starmer has a history of undermining the government running back and forwards to his mates in Brussels and having meetings to undermine the governments position.
  The EU meanwhile will be preoccupied with taking Germany to court in Luxembourg to override Germany's state court who have declared the Euro bond to save the economies of Greece, Spain, Italy, and France, from going tits up while they are members of the Euro.
  They are facing the perfect economic storm over there., we are better out of it, and the EU as we know it will do well to survive, as soon as Poland and Hungary and the other eastern members are asked to chip in instead of taking out of the pot, stand by for a squabble.

[SydneyRover]

Unfortunately Brexit has already gone wrong Wolf I cannot see how anyone could see things improving on that front.

$170 Billion and Counting: The Cost of Brexit for the U.K.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k

Added:

Oh well maybe selby

[Not Now Kato]

Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU.  And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
 
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.

He'll find it a bit difficult to explain away why everybody else's economy recovers after Covid while ours continues to go down the toilet though. Because it'll be either Brexit to blame, or his management of Covid/the economy.

You may be right to a degree Glynn, but he'll still have 'blame the EU for not giving us what we wanted' to fall back on!  Too many people in this country are daft enough to believe it, sadly!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Unless Johnson is truly insane, his negotiating position is a busted flush.

It relies on him genuinely being prepared to walk away without a trade deal in December.

Really?

In the current situation?

After seeing folk fist fighting over the last shit roll in Waitrose, are we REALLY going to choose to collapse our supply chains while we are still dealing with this epidemic?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Unless Johnson is truly insane, his negotiating position is a busted flush.

It relies on him genuinely being prepared to walk away without a trade deal in December.

Really?

In the current situation?

After seeing folk fist fighting over the last shit roll in Waitrose, are we REALLY going to choose to collapse our supply chains while we are still dealing with this epidemic?

Aye, imagine the supermarket queues there'd be if the virus had've hit at the same time as No Deal happened.

[scawsby steve]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.

However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.

I honestly can't see how he'll do it.

[selby]

  Steve, he is also going to have to overcome the realignment of mostly London Boroughs constituencies that could win the Tories up to 20 more seats.

[selby]

Sydney, Joachim Land Md of the BDI germany's Industry Federation
   " The carona virus has  already cost very many jobs across Europe if the Brexit Transition phase expires without an agreement at the end of the year it would turn an already difficult situation to a catastrophe for the EU"
  George Soros,
      "Germany's ECB ruling may mean the end ofthe EU as we know it"
   They are still undergoing quantative easing to spread the dept throughout all the countries in the EU. Germany and the northern states will not wear it mate.
   Germany's tax payers are beginning to think it will never end, The best of luck to Brussels with that one.

[IDM]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.

However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.

I honestly can't see how he'll do it.

By the time of the next GE Corbyn will be political history..  the delivery of brexit, if not the after effects, will be the same.

Plus god knows what other clusterf**ks will have happened by then under Johnson’s “leadership”.

[selby]

  Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
  The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
  We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
  Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.

[wilts rover]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.

However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.

I honestly can't see how he'll do it.

And where exactly do Momentum have issues with him? In the pages of the right wing press?

Momentum's former National Coordinator was one of Starmer's main backers. This is what Momentum tweeted about him yesterday https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1259888498280067072

Its the Daily Mail, Daily Express & S*n that have issues with him. I wonder why they might not want him to be successful?

[Donnywolf]

  Steve, he is also going to have to overcome the realignment of mostly London Boroughs constituencies that could win the Tories up to 20 more seats.

Bent B******s. Why with a landslide dont they just pass a Law saying they can never be voted out of power ever again .... bent B******s.

Yet one more reason we NEED PR of some sort

[BillyStubbsTears]

  Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
  The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
  We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
  Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.

But I assume you have seen the EU's position on why a FTA with a country that has a land border with the EU and does >£275bn of trade with the EU cannot be the same as the FTA with a country that is 3,000 miles away across an ocean and does about £30bn of trade?

You DO get that there are some pretty basic differences there, don't you?

[selby]

  Billy I don't have to get anything, that is the position our government is taking, they want to be treated the same way as other countries with a free trade agreement, why should the geography make any difference, and the amount of trade we do with the EU should be encouraging an agreement not a deterrent with both sides wanting to increase it further.
 All that is left is bad feeling because we have left and the feeling that we should be punished for doing so, and also it frightens them that as an independent we will flourish by trading with the rest of the world as well as themselves but with them having no control over what we decide to do.
  It doesn't sit well with me that people like you and others constantly want this country to fail in their ambition to flourish even before we have left and even tried to make a go of it, and some of the rhetoric, name calling, ageism,and insults that have been thrown about at people who voted to leave are not the thoughts of an educated elite, but are more suited to people who have been dragged up from the gutter.

[scawsby steve]

Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.

The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn.  In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did.  You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..

Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.

If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.

As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.

However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.

I honestly can't see how he'll do it.

And where exactly do Momentum have issues with him? In the pages of the right wing press?

Momentum's former National Coordinator was one of Starmer's main backers. This is what Momentum tweeted about him yesterday https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1259888498280067072

Its the Daily Mail, Daily Express & S*n that have issues with him. I wonder why they might not want him to be successful?

I don't read newspapers Wilts, so I wouldn't know what their issues are with anybody. I personally know lots of ultra-left people, and they didn't want Starmer, they wanted Long-Bailey.

That's hardly the issue though. The issue is turning an 80 seat Tory majority into a huge Labour majority. Anyone thinking that's going to be a doddle is seriously deluded.

The reason I'm able to be so objective on all of this, is because I'm completely non-partisan, and therefore unblinkered.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

I KNOW that's what our Govt position is. I'm saying we won't get it.

And just stop and think for a moment. Why is it that, just because I disagree with you, I want the country to fail.

Just sit down and stop for a moment and ask yourself how you came to that conclusion. And whether you really ought to re-think.

[wilts rover]

I don't read newspapers Wilts, so I wouldn't know what their issues are with anybody. I personally know lots of ultra-left people, and they didn't want Starmer, they wanted Long-Bailey.

That's hardly the issue though. The issue is turning an 80 seat Tory majority into a huge Labour majority. Anyone thinking that's going to be a doddle is seriously deluded.

The reason I'm able to be so objective on all of this, is because I'm completely non-partisan, and therefore unblinkered.

No and that is all fair enough Steve.

I don't think anyone has ever said or thought Starmer's task would be a doodle. I am sure Starmer doesn't think it is. The think is though he has 4 years to do it.

Also you need to factor into your calculations the Lib Dem/Green voters. There were plenty of seats in the last election where the combined Labour/LD/Green vote would have defeated a Tory. Will they take more kindly to Starmer? And in Scotland?