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Author Topic: No Brexit Extension  (Read 90274 times)

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drfchound

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1140 on October 24, 2020, 10:32:27 pm by drfchound »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I wouldn’t  class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 09:03:24 am by drfchound »



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tyke1962

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1141 on October 24, 2020, 10:51:27 pm by tyke1962 »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.

Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .

The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .

Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .

The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .

The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .

Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .

Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .

I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without  a heavy heart .

I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .

scawsby steve

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1142 on October 24, 2020, 10:53:02 pm by scawsby steve »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.

I think Tyke meant it tongue in cheek Hound, as a reference to the opinions some people seem to have of everyone who voted Leave.

scawsby steve

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1143 on October 24, 2020, 10:55:42 pm by scawsby steve »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.

Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .

The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .

Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .

The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .

The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .

Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .

Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .

I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without  a heavy heart .

I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .

You posted that a split second before mine Tyke.

wilts rover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1144 on October 25, 2020, 08:25:10 am by wilts rover »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.

Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .

The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .

Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .

The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .

The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .

Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .

Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .

I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without  a heavy heart .

I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .

These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.

You think leaving the EU, and making it more time consuming and expensive for British manufacturers to sell into their closest market, will benefit 'the working class'!

Brexit was a far-right concept, pushed by American billionaires (and the Russian state for their own reasons) to create a tax have in the UK, lower environmental, food, health & safety and working time regulations and benfit the super-rich at the expense of the working class.

That's what you voted for. You won. Brexit is done, finished. Get over it.

Donnywolf

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1145 on October 25, 2020, 09:13:51 am by Donnywolf »


These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.


I have said all along we NEED PR of some sort NOW and that imo is where the dispersed Labour voters who went Tory and Tories who dont want Labour could find a home

At the moment "hah" who would vote for the Green Party or The Liberal Party??? They both get laughed at / ridiculed as something akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party but they have some good poilicies and ideas and would grow their "fan base" IF they could get a fair crack of the whip'

Below is the table of what might have happened if PR of this type was used in the last GE December 2019 - where ONLY 43% of Votes cast went to Johnson and produced a "landslide" of 80 Seat majority
The Libs would have gained massively, the Greens would be 12 Seats better off . Lib Dems got 11.5 % of all the votes cast (so thats a great support for the 3rd Party) and yet they got just 1.7% of the Seats on offer.

Under the PR system they would have got 11.1% of all the Seats rewarding them and their supporters much much fairer


                        FPTP PR Change
Conservative   365   288   77 -
Brexit Party    0   10   10 +
Labour           202   216   14 +
Liberal Dem     11   70   59 +
Green Party   1   12   11 +
SNP                  48   28   20 -
Plaid Cymru   4   4   0
DUP                   8   6   2 -
Sinn Féin           7   4   3 -
SDLP           2   3   1 +
Alliance           1      3   2 +
UUP                   0   2   2 +
Others           1   4   3 -

Much much fairer and who knows the Lib Dems might get stronger because the Voters fancy their Policies and ideas - and the Party would get heard more and promote those ideas. Disgruntled Tory voters who Vote Tory to avoid Labour might find a new home BUT the Tories have that majority and they have the most to lose - and as you will see would have got 77 Seats less for the same 43% SO THEY are never going to let it happen. It can only happen if Labour get in and campaign with the rest for what would be a fairer system and again imho be much fairer all round and less divisive
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 09:18:04 am by Donnywolf »

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1146 on October 25, 2020, 09:40:28 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Our system is utterly unfit for purpose.

Our Parliamentary system gives huge executive power to the PM and Cabinet. Even though the entire Opposition almost always win far more votes than the "winning" party, there is literally nothing concrete they can do to stop Govt policies being passed.

A system whereby 43-44% of the vote can win you 60+% of the seats can only remotely begin to work if the backbenchers on the winning side are prepared to hold the PM to account in the national interest.

But of course that never happens. A few principled ones do, but most go through the lobby that the whips tell them to.

It's been broken for years. There was a huge chance to fix it in 1997, but Blair reneged on the discussions he had been having with Ashdown on the issue. Precisely because he had a huge, docile majority and was able to rule unchallenged.

I'm quite sure we are never going to have a serious, functioning democracy in this country until we bring in serious PR. But I just don't see any mechanism for bringing in PR. It would mean both Labour and the Tories giving up the chance of unchallenged power in Govt.

Apart from the moral argument though, I find Labour's stance utterly self-defeating. In terms of votes cast, the sum of votes for left and left-leaning centrist parties has been a majority in every election bar one in the past 50 years. With proper PR, there would have been a near-permanent centre-left Govt in this country throughout my lifetime.

River Don

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1147 on October 25, 2020, 10:34:38 am by River Don »
And with the likelihood of centre left governments increasing, we'd see the Tories move toward the centre too. In the event we might not see more felt wing governments but we'd definitely expect to see fewer extremist policies and generally more government by a centrist concensus.

A bit more like Germany really.

tyke1962

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1148 on October 25, 2020, 10:42:52 am by tyke1962 »
I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.

Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .

The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .

Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .

The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .

The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .

Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .

Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .

I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without  a heavy heart .

I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .

These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.

You think leaving the EU, and making it more time consuming and expensive for British manufacturers to sell into their closest market, will benefit 'the working class'!

Brexit was a far-right concept, pushed by American billionaires (and the Russian state for their own reasons) to create a tax have in the UK, lower environmental, food, health & safety and working time regulations and benfit the super-rich at the expense of the working class.

That's what you voted for. You won. Brexit is done, finished. Get over it.

The point I've tried to make Wilts several times on here and elsewhere is that the traditional left were always against the EU right from day one .

They failed to be heard in the referendum campaign in 2016 , the media concentrated on Farage , Johnson , Gove and JRM etc .

These values are still clearly prevalent amongst the working class across the north of england even to the point of voting tory in order to see the referendum result stand .

This point is hardly ever acknowledged , instead we get the middle classes looking down their noses and screaming thick northerners blah blah when clearly they don't know the history .

The Red Wall will return because what is done is done and Johnson and his henchmen are doing what tories do once they have your vote in the bag ...... who knew !!! .

But let's not believe for one minute that the Red Wall voters won't be holding their noses in four years time and ticking the Labour candidates box because they will .

Just because in normal times they haven't anywhere else to go doesn't alter the fact they've been sold down the river by the party and have deemed them irrelevant and not worth listening to including it's current leader .




River Don

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1149 on October 25, 2020, 10:50:05 am by River Don »
The Brexit scenario would have been interesting under PR since it tended to unite those on left and right against the centre.

I expect the numbers would have still favoured the centre but the way the discontent was rising along with the UKIP vote, well, who knows.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1150 on October 25, 2020, 11:58:59 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Tyke

Aye, and the point I've been making for years is that those people on the Bennite Left who wanted Brexit and voted for it (and I will go to my grave convinced that Corbyn is one of them) were criminally naive in not seeing what sort of Brexit they were going to enable.

The Bennite Left has for decades seen the EU as a barrier to a Socialist Utopia. That may well be true. But it was also a barrier to the rabid excesses of a far-right free-market society.

The Bennite Left who voted Leave almost certainly tipped the balance. They have opened the Pandora's box of a far-right controlled Brexit while not advancing the road to socialism by one inch.

It is a classic example of naive, emotional self-indulgence over rational consideration.

tyke1962

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1151 on October 25, 2020, 12:42:32 pm by tyke1962 »
Tyke

Aye, and the point I've been making for years is that those people on the Bennite Left who wanted Brexit and voted for it (and I will go to my grave convinced that Corbyn is one of them) were criminally naive in not seeing what sort of Brexit they were going to enable.

The Bennite Left has for decades seen the EU as a barrier to a Socialist Utopia. That may well be true. But it was also a barrier to the rabid excesses of a far-right free-market society.

The Bennite Left who voted Leave almost certainly tipped the balance. They have opened the Pandora's box of a far-right controlled Brexit while not advancing the road to socialism by one inch.

It is a classic example of naive, emotional self-indulgence over rational consideration.

There is no socialist utopia Billy even I know that , total socialism doesn't work , a mixed economy most certainly does .

This goes deeper than economic ideology in the red wall .

The red wall doesn't much care for multiculturalism , gay rights this and black lifes matter that because they've all on keeping their own heads above water every time they are sacrificed on the alter of corporate profit and shareholder value , competing with Eastern Europeans for race to the bottom jobs on agency's and ZHC's , we all know who started this debacle don't we ?

The Labour Party needs to cut this shyte out focusing on minorities and just start speaking for everyone as a single group , please spare me the workers of the world unite shyte , if tha can find me one Pole who won't stab you in the back for an hours overtime he'll be lonely .

I make no apologies for my words , I know it doesn't fit the Labour Party of today but I speak as I've found over a good number of years .

Besides someone has to speak for the working class because no bugga else does .


BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1152 on October 25, 2020, 12:56:26 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Tyke.

The Labour party has to be a coalition of interests or it is finished. The Labour party will not win power EVER by focussing on working class nationalism. Because the number of people who that attracts is tiny. The traditional working class is a fraction of the size it was 50 years ago. Labour HAS to appeal to urban, outward looking, young, multicultural professionals at least as much as it does to the working class.

There;s no choice in that. Corbyn lost that metropolitan young section of support in early 2019, when he moved to accommodating and facilitating the Tory Brexit. The result was the lowest poll ratings and the lowest national election vote share for Labour since 1918.

It's your choice. You can insist we have it all on your terms. You can demand that the Labour party becomes an economic nationalist one which puts up walls to the rest of the world if you want. I will guarantee you that if that happens, Labour wouldn't get into power again in our lifetimes. Or you can compromise. Address the world as it is, rather than as you ideally want it to be. Accept that fact that there are other people who support Labour who profoundly disagree with your opinion on minorities and immigrants. And find an accommodation that gives each side something of what they want. Instead of what you did over Brexit, which was to ensure that no-one in the Labour movement got what they want beyond an impotent lashing out.

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1153 on October 25, 2020, 01:45:59 pm by selby »
  PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.




tyke1962

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1154 on October 25, 2020, 01:59:39 pm by tyke1962 »
Tyke.

The Labour party has to be a coalition of interests or it is finished. The Labour party will not win power EVER by focussing on working class nationalism. Because the number of people who that attracts is tiny. The traditional working class is a fraction of the size it was 50 years ago. Labour HAS to appeal to urban, outward looking, young, multicultural professionals at least as much as it does to the working class.

There;s no choice in that. Corbyn lost that metropolitan young section of support in early 2019, when he moved to accommodating and facilitating the Tory Brexit. The result was the lowest poll ratings and the lowest national election vote share for Labour since 1918.

It's your choice. You can insist we have it all on your terms. You can demand that the Labour party becomes an economic nationalist one which puts up walls to the rest of the world if you want. I will guarantee you that if that happens, Labour wouldn't get into power again in our lifetimes. Or you can compromise. Address the world as it is, rather than as you ideally want it to be. Accept that fact that there are other people who support Labour who profoundly disagree with your opinion on minorities and immigrants. And find an accommodation that gives each side something of what they want. Instead of what you did over Brexit, which was to ensure that no-one in the Labour movement got what they want beyond an impotent lashing out.

There is no compromise to be found within the liberal left , there is no compromise within the centre of the Labour Party .

Janso

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1155 on October 25, 2020, 02:47:14 pm by Janso »
  PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.

Mad how everyone who has an opinion that isn't yours you label a "do-gooder". Then again, when you have the Home Secretary labelling legal professionals trying to stop the government breaking the law as "activist lawyers", I suppose that's to be expected.

DonnyOsmond

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1156 on October 25, 2020, 02:48:43 pm by DonnyOsmond »


These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.


I have said all along we NEED PR of some sort NOW and that imo is where the dispersed Labour voters who went Tory and Tories who dont want Labour could find a home

At the moment "hah" who would vote for the Green Party or The Liberal Party??? They both get laughed at / ridiculed as something akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party but they have some good poilicies and ideas and would grow their "fan base" IF they could get a fair crack of the whip'

Below is the table of what might have happened if PR of this type was used in the last GE December 2019 - where ONLY 43% of Votes cast went to Johnson and produced a "landslide" of 80 Seat majority
The Libs would have gained massively, the Greens would be 12 Seats better off . Lib Dems got 11.5 % of all the votes cast (so thats a great support for the 3rd Party) and yet they got just 1.7% of the Seats on offer.

Under the PR system they would have got 11.1% of all the Seats rewarding them and their supporters much much fairer


                        FPTP PR Change
Conservative   365   288   77 -
Brexit Party    0   10   10 +
Labour           202   216   14 +
Liberal Dem     11   70   59 +
Green Party   1   12   11 +
SNP                  48   28   20 -
Plaid Cymru   4   4   0
DUP                   8   6   2 -
Sinn Féin           7   4   3 -
SDLP           2   3   1 +
Alliance           1      3   2 +
UUP                   0   2   2 +
Others           1   4   3 -

Much much fairer and who knows the Lib Dems might get stronger because the Voters fancy their Policies and ideas - and the Party would get heard more and promote those ideas. Disgruntled Tory voters who Vote Tory to avoid Labour might find a new home BUT the Tories have that majority and they have the most to lose - and as you will see would have got 77 Seats less for the same 43% SO THEY are never going to let it happen. It can only happen if Labour get in and campaign with the rest for what would be a fairer system and again imho be much fairer all round and less divisive

I prefer STV, which is a form of PR, 100% agree things need to change though. As what's been said and proven with figures numerous times we are a country that largely votes center-left parties, yet we have a far right government currently, that isn't representative of the country. The figures you've posted too would change anyway as people wouldn't just vote for one of the two parties due to their voices not being heard, they'd actually be able to vote for Greens or UKIP and see some representation.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1157 on October 25, 2020, 03:47:07 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
  PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.





If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.

Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.

UKIP were irrelevant then.

And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.

And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.

And UKIP started taking support from the Tories.

And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.

None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.


So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.

And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.

selby

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1158 on October 25, 2020, 03:59:25 pm by selby »
  All you have done is highlight how under PR things can change in a ten year period, who is arguing about the period before I was pointing out that PR could have brought about a far more right wing coalition, and forced the lefties to take up a brexit stance to remain relevant as a party under that voting system.
 Preach to the deciples buddy.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1159 on October 25, 2020, 04:11:35 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Selby

We do not have a right wing majority in this country. As I said earlier there have been 14 elections since 1970, and in only one of those (2015) have right wing parties won 50% of the vote.

River Don

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1160 on October 25, 2020, 05:52:22 pm by River Don »
An interesting piece about Brexit and the tension between the federalist and the nationalism in the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/25/brexit-was-no-aberration-the-european-union-needs-to-learn-from-it

Personally I think federalism has always been the long game. Overtime the EU has encroached more and more into the territory of national identity. The Euro currency though was a step change. In some European nations its just accepted as fact, a political good and a goal.

In the UK though, the federalist ambition was always denied to reassure about UK membership and I think think there was a certain dishonesty in that. Perhaps if they had been more open about where things were going long ago then either the UK would have bought into the project more wholeheartedly. Or left much sooner before it became so integrated.

River Don

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1161 on October 29, 2020, 12:20:40 am by River Don »

This isn't quite what the Tories and UKIP/Brexit Party were promising Brexit would deliver is it? Funny, the newspapers don't seem to have picked up on this story either.

Net migration targets & £35,800 salary threshold scrapped.

https://workpermit.com/news/net-uk-migration-targets-ps35800-salary-threshold-scrapped-20201026

EasyforDennis

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1162 on October 30, 2020, 04:35:57 pm by EasyforDennis »
We could be in for an interesting election next time around. Labour will have purged itself of the hard left and hopefully got rid of the Corbynistas and the Borisettes will have departed taking the hard right with them. Who knows we could end up with a centrist party which I am sure is exactly what many people want. Lets face it the only reason Doris is in power is due to the dislike of Corbyn and the Lies and lets get rid of all the foreigners voters who got us Brexit and all the problems that come with it.

scawsby steve

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1163 on October 30, 2020, 06:39:27 pm by scawsby steve »
We could be in for an interesting election next time around. Labour will have purged itself of the hard left and hopefully got rid of the Corbynistas and the Borisettes will have departed taking the hard right with them. Who knows we could end up with a centrist party which I am sure is exactly what many people want. Lets face it the only reason Doris is in power is due to the dislike of Corbyn and the Lies and lets get rid of all the foreigners voters who got us Brexit and all the problems that come with it.

Are you seriously saying that all those die-hard socialists in the North-East voted Tory for the first time in their lives because they preferred Johnson to Corbyn?

You're missing the point, like a lot do on here, that the hard left have been anti-EU for decades, and the left doesn't come much harder than in the North-East.

Starmer won't get that lot back onside by kicking out the hard left.

SydneyRover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1164 on October 30, 2020, 07:16:06 pm by SydneyRover »
Dislike of the EU is not a badge of honour SS is shows a misunderstanding of it and a readiness to believe the b*llocks.

scawsby steve

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1165 on October 30, 2020, 07:23:16 pm by scawsby steve »
Dislike of the EU is not a badge of honour SS is shows a misunderstanding of it and a readiness to believe the b*llocks.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with my post Sydney.

The North-East is Starmer's problem.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1166 on October 30, 2020, 07:29:06 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
SS.

I'm guessing you missed Peter Kellner from YouGov about 3-4 months ago?  Analysing polling data. He reckons Labour have re-taken the lead in pretty much all the Red Wall seats.

scawsby steve

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1167 on October 30, 2020, 07:36:34 pm by scawsby steve »
SS.

I'm guessing you missed Peter Kellner from YouGov about 3-4 months ago?  Analysing polling data. He reckons Labour have re-taken the lead in pretty much all the Red Wall seats.

That was before the internal wranglings with the hard left that could now be starting.

That was the point of my post.

SydneyRover

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Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1168 on October 30, 2020, 07:45:29 pm by SydneyRover »
I take your point SS that brexit had nothing to do with the election of johnson.

scawsby steve

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  • Posts: 7707
Re: No Brexit Extension
« Reply #1169 on October 30, 2020, 07:55:33 pm by scawsby steve »
I take your point SS that brexit had nothing to do with the election of johnson.

What? Sydney, you've a real problem with understanding semantics.

Go back and read my posts very carefully.

 

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