Wigan

[Colemans Left Hook]

Should be a 12 point deduction as the seasons still live, circumstances should have nothing to do with it. At least Tyke should be happy as that would put Wigan bottom. Question is who’s next? Only a
Matter of time I think. Blackburn Rovers?

So what happens if 3/4 Championship clubs go into admin. -12 points for each?  The EFL could have a total farce of a situation to sort out.

slight variation here  remember  this at the start of 2008/09

"Bournemouth will start the League Two season on minus 17 points, the Football
League has confirmed."

"League Two rivals Rotherham have already been deducted 17 points and Luton 30, the Hatters having been found guilty of trangressing transfer dealings."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1042684/Bournemouth-start-League-Two-17-point-deduction.html

[steve@dcfd]

Let’s look at a different scenario Wigan not conceded a goal in the last six games. They’ve won four out of the last five. If they get 12 pts from their last 6 games then they’ll have 62 pts. That means at least one of the bottom three as got to get a minimum of 51 pts. It will be interesting what happens. They have until the start of next season to sort out owners, before the EFL will act and could still be in the Championship. It might be pie in the sky but just another thought.

[idler]

Surely if you have players on existing contracts you can’t be expected to reduce them, that would be ridiculous and I would have though illegal. Also they can hardly penalise you for it points wise either but then this is the EFL we are talking about.

If you are over the limit now with maybe only 14 players how can you increase your squad size?
You would be just increasing the gap between the agreed Cap figure and your budget. I would imagine that existing contracts are OK but do you get rid of big earners to get a bigger squad? The other side of the coin is who else would be in a position to offer them a big salary?

[IDM]

I might be wrong but I thought the admin thing went something like this:

There’s a cut off date in late March, and if a club goes into administration before that date the points deduction applies there and then as a punishment in season.

If this happens after the date, the points deduction then depends on where the club finishes in the table. 

If they finish safe from relegation by a margin greater than the deduction, then the points deduction happens the following season.

If the club would have been relegated anyway, the deduction applies in the following season in the lower division (Leeds for example)

If the club would avoid relegation by less points than the penalty, then the punishment applies at the end of the season so they go down.

Now, I may be wrong with some of that, but a punishment needs to be a punishment, or what’s the point.?

[idler]

That's exactly how I understood it as well IDM. Wasn't it brought out to stop teams hanging on just to avoid going down the same season?
I'm sure that it was changed because a team did just that.

[roversdude]

Isn’t there still action pending over Derby and Wendies too

[RoversAlias]

That is exactly right IDM, and was made that way after Leeds and Boston both went into administration after knowing they were going down anyway. At least in Boston's case it was literally minutes before the end of the final game when they knew they weren't going to win and stay up.

[IDM]

Ken Bates did it at Leeds at half time in their final fixture that season.  Thought he would get away with it.

Leeds fans still bang on about -15 points.!!

[albie]

What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!

[Pancho Regan]

What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!

What an absolute disgrace.
A club with such a proud history, trashed by some faceless foreign 'money-men' in very dubious circumstances.
Lessons never seem to be learned do they?

[drfchound]

How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.

[Campsall rover]

How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.

That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.

[silent majority]

How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.

That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.

There's been an ongoing governance review of football for quite some time. The FA, along with DCMS has instructed the EPL and EFL to come up with solutions to some of the major issues. We, the FSA, produced our own document and proposals (which I've mentioned on here numerous times) which the FA and Government stated that we had understood the situation far better than anyone, and that the EFL and EPL should look at it more closely. So far the response from both organisations has been positive.

So, yes it will change.

[selby]

  SM, I appreciate everything that people like yourself do for the good of football and the time and effort you and others put in.
  But the time line was very short at the beginning of this pandemic, when there was interest from outside influences and some good will in government and concern.
  The money people in the game have slow timed that fearful in the FA and EFL  of losing influence and power for the hangers on, and the EPL and big clubs fearful of having to chip in and save some of the clubs they see as 1) irrelevant 2) an annoyance 3) their supporters as a potential cash cow of their own if the small clubs go out of business.
   My gut feeling now is if the government do not step in and impose restraint and pressure on the EPL they will contribute nothing, at least one and probably two of the cup competitions will be scrapped limiting the small clubs ability to win extra revenue, and far from playing less games the top clubs with world wide reputations will use the extra time between competitive games to play round robbin competitions between themselves or exhibition games abroad with most of them televised.
  The government can however stop the rot if they just impose a 30% levy  on agents fees and transfers over £2 million 50% of the levy to the exchequer and 50% into a lower league football club fund, which would be the start of keeping the money in the game instead of in the pockets of rip off spivs.
 

[Dare to dream!]

Sounds like some real dodg stuff was happening with the ownership of the club. Can't help but feel sorry for the fans, they really don't deserve this.

[silent majority]

selby,

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

As part of the EFL changes that are anticipated with regard to salary caps and squad sizes one of those is that agents fees are to be included in the total. That means any expensive agents will be frozen out by the EFL, either that or the players will have to fund the agents themselves. Not all agents earn massive amounts of cash, but some obviously do. But your plan to tax on the top of that and divert funds to lower clubs is a non-starter.

[Campsall rover]

How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.

That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.

There's been an ongoing governance review of football for quite some time. The FA, along with DCMS has instructed the EPL and EFL to come up with solutions to some of the major issues. We, the FSA, produced our own document and proposals (which I've mentioned on here numerous times) which the FA and Government stated that we had understood the situation far better than anyone, and that the EFL and EPL should look at it more closely. So far the response from both organisations has been positive.

So, yes it will change.

Let’s hope so SM as this is so way overdue.
Really is an appalling situation the way our biggest sport is run. The Administration of the way football is run needs a massive overhaul.

[redwine]

I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

[Campsall rover]

I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

That’s not happening.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

A cup shouldn't need to have to be cancelled. All it takes is to remove the obligation for EPL clubs to participate if they don't want to. That way those clubs who do still want to to participate in that cup if they want to still can and don't have that option denied just because of the EPL.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

We're moving off track here.

We have known for years and through experience, the financing of football can be a murky world and is ripe for exploitation and the use of illegal practices including money laundering.

It appears, particularly with overseas buyers, being able to perform an adequate Director's test can be virtually impossible without sufficient resources to conduct financial forensics on overseas companies and officers.

For example, the Newcastle takeover is taking an age to complete due to ongoing investigations into possible illegal activity of one of the major buyers. Yet, you get the feeling the EPL are trying to sweep these issues under the carpet to allow the takeover to go through, cos it means 'Loads more money' will come into the Premier League either directly or indirectly.

The Wigan takeover appears to be a farce and does indeed uphold the fact the current tests are wholly inadequate.

But how many more clubs will become victims before new rules/tests come into force.

Unfortunately, even with the Covid crisis, greed will be the major driver over clubs long term welfare with fans even further down the line.

[Dagenham Rover]

I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

A cup shouldn't need to have to be cancelled. All it takes is to remove the obligation for EPL clubs to participate if they don't want to. That way those clubs who do still want to to participate in that cup if they want to still can and don't have that option denied just because of the EPL.

Crikey Glyn I agree with you

[Alan Southstand]

SM:

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

[swintonrover]

The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

But If they don't they breach their own rules. It's a big mess.

[BradwellRover]

It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...

[Glyn_Wigley]

The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??

[silent majority]

SM:

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...

Excellent post.

The thing is, if these reviews result in tighter controls and governance by closing the loopholes, English football will become less attractive for the criminals and speculators, which I'm not sure the EPL, EFL and FA are ready to face up to knowing there will be less money swimming around for everyone to skim off.

Clubs having to live within their means will be a frightening thought for many who have profited in recent years. However, for those of us who love the game and our clubs, this clean up cannot come too soon.

[Campsall rover]

It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...

Sounds like a bit of common sense to me.