Wigan

[RoversAlias]

SM:

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.

It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."

[Chris Black come back]

What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!

What an absolute disgrace.
A club with such a proud history, trashed by some faceless foreign 'money-men' in very dubious circumstances.
Lessons never seem to be learned do they?

Don’t get me wrong, this should not have happened to them - but they don’t really have a proud history. The club wasn’t formed until 1932 and did not make it into league football until 1978. They were shit and regularly fighting for wooden spoon with us for years and years until Whelan put steroids into them. Good on him for doing that, but without him they would likely still be in League Two looking forward to playing Barrow next season. 

[swintonrover]

The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??

They were aware of irregular betting patterns and let the takeover happen anyway. It's gross negligence at best.

[silent majority]

SM:

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.

It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."

I'm not really bothered where the response came from, I'm well aware of the current situation (we have a weekly update from the EFL and we have fan owned clubs in the EFL) and that response from Richard Masters is at best misleading and at worst dishonourable.

Part of the governments approval and support for Project Restart included the agreement to help lower league clubs, which is obviously why DCMS were asking. At this weeks meet of EFL clubs they were told Richard Parry was dealing with this directly and that movement was expected within the next couple of weeks.

[selby]

  Stand by for disappointment SM. Parry might have carried some weight when he was at the EPL  but now he is a nobody backed by nobodies, If the government do not insist on the EPL doing something to aid the smaller clubs it will be at best a token amount and at it's  worst will not be an amount that makes any significant difference and will be balanced out with conditions to the EPL's advantage in future.
   Not to mention the level of distribution the bigger championship sides will try to snaffle up with the threat of EPL 2 being thrown about.
  The original threat was the pending loss of many small clubs, which apart from the manufactured likely loss of Wigan has not yet manifested itself. And the confidence of the EPL to minimise any help has grown over the intervening period. The absolute woeful response to the emergency has now lost all momentum from the survival of clubs and turned to when the next season will be restarted.
  Once that decision is made and clubs start to ready themselves at the lower levels they will once again be left to fend for themselves and become a side show. The odd club that might fall by the wayside will get a couple of days how sad headlines and local news coverage, while the main concentration will be who will be the next manager of Tottering and who will be the next superstar multi million pound signings for the top four or five EPL teams Real Madrid and Barca.

[RoversAlias]

SM:

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.

It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."

I'm not really bothered where the response came from, I'm well aware of the current situation (we have a weekly update from the EFL and we have fan owned clubs in the EFL) and that response from Richard Masters is at best misleading and at worst dishonourable.

Part of the governments approval and support for Project Restart included the agreement to help lower league clubs, which is obviously why DCMS were asking. At this weeks meet of EFL clubs they were told Richard Parry was dealing with this directly and that movement was expected within the next couple of weeks.

That's fine SM and if you have good reason to believe differently then I hope it all works out (although I think Selby touches on a good point - it has now been nearly four months since all this started and tangible help for EFL clubs hasn't materialised) but I felt it fair to note that Alan didn't pluck this quote from nowhere nor was it some random spokesperson who said that there has been no request for help, since that line came from Richard Masters himself who is surely the most important figure in any scenario where the Premier League helps the EFL.

[silent majority]

RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.

[silent majority]

  Stand by for disappointment SM. Parry might have carried some weight when he was at the EPL  but now he is a nobody backed by nobodies, If the government do not insist on the EPL doing something to aid the smaller clubs it will be at best a token amount and at it's  worst will not be an amount that makes any significant difference and will be balanced out with conditions to the EPL's advantage in future.
   Not to mention the level of distribution the bigger championship sides will try to snaffle up with the threat of EPL 2 being thrown about.
  The original threat was the pending loss of many small clubs, which apart from the manufactured likely loss of Wigan has not yet manifested itself. And the confidence of the EPL to minimise any help has grown over the intervening period. The absolute woeful response to the emergency has now lost all momentum from the survival of clubs and turned to when the next season will be restarted.
  Once that decision is made and clubs start to ready themselves at the lower levels they will once again be left to fend for themselves and become a side show. The odd club that might fall by the wayside will get a couple of days how sad headlines and local news coverage, while the main concentration will be who will be the next manager of Tottering and who will be the next superstar multi million pound signings for the top four or five EPL teams Real Madrid and Barca.

selby, I've already said that the government made assistance of the smaller clubs one of the conditions for allowing the EPL to conclude. This Covid-19 crisis is a godsend for football clubs in some respects, its finally given them the motivation to do the things they've had on their wish list for a number of years. I expect the EFL to follow up on that.

[selby]

SM, I hope you are right.

[albie]

Article in the FT (paywalled) saying that this is an attempt to relegate Wigan (with the points deducted), in order to win a bet placed in the Phillipines!

There must be a significant sum involved.

This is the modern football industry, vulnerable to predatory actions from across the world.
The rules regarding ownership look very dated in relation to the way money moves across the global economy these days.

[Campsall rover]

Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?

[silent majority]

Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?

I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.

[Campsall rover]

Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?

I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.

So if that’s the case, and is, as i thought also, why have they gone into Administration?
Makes it look even more suspicious.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Dave Whelan said he might have to step in again and help where he can.

The Administrator has already said they're investigating what happened and any foul play involved. How any overseas crims can be brought to justice is anyone's guess.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??

They were aware of irregular betting patterns and let the takeover happen anyway. It's gross negligence at best.

And if they stopped a potentially club-saving takeover because of 'irregular betting patterns' without any evidence of a connection to the new owners, what would you call it then?

If a betting scam is at the heart of all this, that'll be enough for me to hope Wigan stay up and screw the bas**rds. And on top of that, that the club is confiscated from the new owners so they don't get a penny back when the club is sold to new owners.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Not sure if everyone has understood the chain of events here, although the timing of things are somewhat contentious and are under investigation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53261368

The new owners NLF have put the club into administration, having instructed their lawyers to confirm they will not put another penny into the club.

This comes within days from the date they took ownership from IEC who had been in control for some time. This raised concerns and only then have irregular betting patterns been reported.

The question is whether IEC knew and/or planned the handover and the subsequent administration whilst masterminding the betting on relegation as a result of the impending points deduction.

I don't think the EFL were aware of any betting irregularities before the  transfer of ownership or when the club was put into administration. The question for the EFL is whether they carried out sufficient checks on the new owners, proof of funding and business plan etc.

[Frankie Rennie]

Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.

[Muttley]

If it was a betting scam, why spunk £41m on a club like Wigan instead of a club in L1 or 2 who could be bought for substantially less, thereby reducing the possible losses if the bet didn't come off?

[Glyn_Wigley]

If it was a betting scam, why spunk £41m on a club like Wigan instead of a club in L1 or 2 who could be bought for substantially less, thereby reducing the possible losses if the bet didn't come off?

For a start it has to be a club in the right league position to be able to pull off the scam, and that is available to purchase. Also, you've a better chance of recouping your outlay when selling on a club in a decent financial position than one that has increasing debts.

[since-1969]

RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.

Nothing but speculation and conjecture!! The Efl if guilty of anything is not having the balls at the formation of the Premier League not to seek more money for the L1 / L2 clubs to prevent them from being left bereft of capital in hard times when they the PL are allowed to flaunt FairPlay rules and get away with paying the minimum trickled down fee the could get away . COVID-19 is the death nail for every club if fans can’t return even for 3/6 months . Finances in place in the PL will tide them over but not everyone else.

[silent majority]

RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.

Nothing but speculation and conjecture!! The Efl if guilty of anything is not having the balls at the formation of the Premier League not to seek more money for the L1 / L2 clubs to prevent them from being left bereft of capital in hard times when they the PL are allowed to flaunt FairPlay rules and get away with paying the minimum trickled down fee the could get away . COVID-19 is the death nail for every club if fans can’t return even for 3/6 months . Finances in place in the PL will tide them over but not everyone else.

What are you talking about?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.

That's a good question. How much DD should the seller do? This is as much a moral question as well.

Does Mike Ashley care, as long as he gets his money? You could ask the same question of many a takeover to foreign ownership.

From what I gather, DW had no reason to doubt the intentions of the new owners, although since they took over they have largely remained faceless. This looks like an opportunistic and desperate way out in the face of mounting losses exacerbated by the Covid crisis.

It's probably likely that DM sold Wigan as a Premiership club on a sabitical and perhaps the new owners realised they've been sold a dud.

You wonder whether McCabe did full due diligence at Sheff Utd when trying to attact Arab millions, before realising he was caught with his pants down and forced to sell all his interests in the club to the Arab. Things look good for the Blades at the moment but you wonder if they get relegated at some point, the Arab will call in his dues!

[albie]

Comment from 200% on the fiasco at Atletico Wigano;
https://twohundredpercent.net/wigan-athletic-plot-thickens/

How to stop bad faith actors abusing any loophole they find in the football rules to game the system?
Difficult to see how the EFL will come to an agreement on this, when any changes might restrict the actions of some current members.

[drfchound]

I’ve just seen on the BBC Sport website that Wigan are to appeal against the 12 point points deduction.

[albie]

Latest from David Conn;
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/08/wigan-debacle-exposes-unsustainable-excesses-of-the-football-league

The trouble is the people with the power to make changes are the least likely folk to want to see change.
The EFL and the pyramid below are of no interest to the movers and shakers in the Prem.

[rover-n-out]

If the EPL don't give two hoots for the EFL leagues, and let clubs go to the wall, how do they expect to find new young talent coming through to plunder from lower league clubs.

[albie]

Seems that the fella who bought Wigan was a bankrupt in 2004 in Hong Kong;
https://twitter.com/dylanharris/status/1280205192995233799/photo/1

This is NOT against the rules if the bankruptcy was discharged, but did the EFL know about this before he took over?

[Frankie Rennie]

Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?

I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.

I think if you check Silent you’ll find that Wigan is loss making which last year was about £6M. That said they are run better than most but like the majority of clubs outside the PL wouldn’t be solvent without a benefactor.

[Frankie Rennie]

Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.

That's a good question. How much DD should the seller do? This is as much a moral question as well.

Does Mike Ashley care, as long as he gets his money? You could ask the same question of many a takeover to foreign ownership.

From what I gather, DW had no reason to doubt the intentions of the new owners, although since they took over they have largely remained faceless. This looks like an opportunistic and desperate way out in the face of mounting losses exacerbated by the Covid crisis.

It's probably likely that DM sold Wigan as a Premiership club on a sabitical and perhaps the new owners realised they've been sold a dud.

You wonder whether McCabe did full due diligence at Sheff Utd when trying to attact Arab millions, before realising he was caught with his pants down and forced to sell all his interests in the club to the Arab. Things look good for the Blades at the moment but you wonder if they get relegated at some point, the Arab will call in his dues!

You’d like to think someone as loyal as DW was to Wigan would do due diligence on the buyer because he’s still a fan and I’m sure he did but if the buying company is solvent, can meet the buying price and can prove to the EFL that they have the resources to run the club, how can they not be passed as fit and proper. The problem is that the owner just said that he wasn’t prepared to spend that money anymore, just as Anderson did with Wanderers. I’m not sure how the EFL can be blamed in either situation on that front.

Since both Anderson and Choi have had financial issues in the past and in Anderson’s case been Banned previously by the EFL for 6 years, maybe that should preclude ownership. It’s a difficult one really because when any business is obviously insolvent it makes sense not to throw good money after bad. Wigan’s owners no longer wanted to fund the club but you’d have thought they would try to sell it first rather than go into admin so you do suspect there is another reason somewhere. Let’s just hope the administrators can find a buyer and keep Wigan alive.

[silent majority]

Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?

I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.

I think if you check Silent you’ll find that Wigan is loss making which last year was about £6M. That said they are run better than most but like the majority of clubs outside the PL wouldn’t be solvent without a benefactor.

Apologies, yes you're right.

The documents I've seen in the last few days show a very unrealistic expectation of earnings from AYWK and realising this decided on administration as a quick solution. So far they haven't paid the balance either and therefore the sale would automatically default under EFL regs.

It also appears that the stadium is not included in the administration.