Question for Tory supporters

[BillyStubbsTears]

Back in 2009/10, our total debt was about 45% of GDP and the a annual deficit was about 10%. People in the Right were screaming that this was a national disgrace and that if we didn't control the debt, we were heading to economic catastrophe.

Today, the total debt is about 90% of GDP and the deficit this year is going to be 15-20%.

So, why is no-one on the Right screaming that public spending should be slashed? Why is no-one calling those in power Deficit Deniers?

Any thoughts?

[Pancho Regan]

I'm not a Tory supporter but I'd imagine the reason that none of those on the Right are screaming that this is a national disgrace, is that we are fighting an unprecedented global pandemic which has claimed tens of thousands of lives in the UK and is wreaking havoc on jobs and the economy?

Just a wild guess like. 

[Ldr]

Because its the correct thing to do end of story

[Not Now Kato]

Because its the correct thing to do end of story

Yes, of course it is - but then, it always was.  Sadly the Tories chose austerity to address previous issues, let's hope they've learned from their mistakes.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Pretty different circumstances I would argue.  You will always be better off trying to avoid a defecit in the good times to provide some.flexibility for the bad.

10 years ago the public sector had grown too wasteful and it was about time some.cuts happened in some areas.  They did go too far in some areas and continue to but the lean thought process shouldn't be seen as a dirty idea, it's not.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Predictable replies, but they really don't stack up.

1) You cannot say it wasn't the right thing to do then but it is now. The scale of the problems facing us were similar. Both scenarios call for large Govt borrowing and spending . The public finances were in BETTER condition then and better able to deal with it, yet the Right universally cried out that we were heading to disaster if we didn't greatly cut back.

2) BFYP's argument that public setvices needed to be cut back then is illuminating. That's got nothing to do with the economic response to a severe recession. It's a political, ideological decision to cut back Govt spending (against ALL established economic theory).

But hang on. That argument doesn't hold water anyway. Govt spending in 2008 on the cusp of the Great Financial Crash was 36.8% of GDP. In 2019, just before this crisis, it was 37.9%

So. Now, our debts are far higher than they were in 2008 and the proportion of our income that Govt spends is also higher.

Ldr gets halfway to the right answer. Of course Govt borrowing and spending is the correct answer now. But that's not the end of the story, because it misses the other part of the question.

Why was it wrong 10-12 years ago?

[Ldr]

It wasn't, think we all realise that

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thanks for that response Ldr.

That is genuinely the very first time I have ever heard anyone with Right-leaning political believes admit that.

That's the point I've been trying to make. In 2009, anyone who knew anything about economics knew that Govt increasing spending to get us out of the worst recession since the War was the correct response. Cameron and Osborne knew that. But they calculated that by cynically criticising the Labour Govt for that spending, they could get a political advantage. So that is what they did.

The point I was trying to make is that today NO-ONE is trying to place the appalling economic position we are in for political benefit, like those two upper class chancers did a decade ago. I hope people remember that when the claim that all politicians are as bad as each other.

[selby]

   Billy, it is you who are missing what has happened. Like myself lot's of labour voters have moved away from labour not because the tories are so good, but because the labour party, and the main actors on Corbyns front bench projected themselves so badly, were from and favoured the South East of England, did not back their core belief in Brexit, and even belittled their opinions and called them stupid  to their faces on programmes such as question time and the Marr show, and ignored repeated warnings from their own MP's in the party, who were then ostracized by momentum for doing so, giving the party the face of a far left party with communist tendencies.
  When you do that consistently for four years the last election result ends up the result and a party that was and is unelectable in the UK unless it changes and gives support to the opinions of the people in their traditional areas.
 

[IDM]

 Not sure how that relates to the OP or to the rest of the thread.?

[selby]

  IDM, the point is figures and  national debt, and GDP don't mean as much to the average punter as those reasons, and when every country in the world is suffering the same thing , some countries far worse, it is projected as the norm.
  In 1998 Labour took the blame because basically some silly bugger left a note to an incoming government trying to be clever, which gave the tories the moral high ground pointing the blame at Labour.
  Now the publicity is world wide with every country in the same doo doo just the same really but the point is accepted as a worldwide problem, which it is and was in 98 but not seen the same way by the public and yes the tory publicity machine is helping and also castigated labour in 98.

[IDM]

Your previous post made no mention of any of that, just how under Corbyn’s leadership Labour were a lost cause.  There’s no link to the fiscal policies there at all..

[selby]

Well you can link the two now IDM, you may not agree, and I respect your right to do so, but the vast majority of the electorate have not got the slightest interest in fiscal policies of government because they have no way of influencing the way the economy works and is directed for the next five years and have become resigned to just going along with the flow.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

That is a deeply depressing answer. For two reasons.

1) There is NOTHING more important than a Government's fiscal policy. Everything else flows from that. Employment, defence, education, everything. And if you basically opt out if thinking about that at elections...

2) The actual point of my OP was to do with honesty with the electorate and hypocrisy. Your responses scream out that they mean nothing to you.

[IDM]

Well you can link the two now IDM, you may not agree, and I respect your right to do so, but the vast majority of the electorate have not got the slightest interest in fiscal policies of government because they have no way of influencing the way the economy works and is directed for the next five years and have become resigned to just going along with the flow.

There’s no link at all in the context of this thread.

It’s like trying to throw in a comment on stadium catering in a man of the match vote thread..  all about football but completely different contexts.

[drfchound]

Selby

That is a deeply depressing answer. For two reasons.

1) There is NOTHING more important than a Government's fiscal policy. Everything else flows from that. Employment, defence, education, everything. And if you basically opt out if thinking about that at elections...

2) The actual point of my OP was to do with honesty with the electorate and hypocrisy. Your responses scream out that they mean nothing to you.

But selby did say that no one can do anything about fiscal policies for the next five years so he isn’t suggesting that he or anyone else will opt out of thinking about it at elections.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

I meant the overall response. All the posts taken together. Including the ones earlier where he trumpeted ignorance of and lack of interest in the subject.

[selby]

Billy, it may upset you, but it is reality, most voters just take in the sound bites, and most have already made their minds up where their vote is going well before any election, and unfortunately for Labour the sound bite you cannot trust labour with the economy first muted over ten years ago still resonates with a large section of the electorate, the debate whether it is true or not is a different argument.
  The Covid problem basically gives the government a free ride now, everything, whether right or wrong will be put down to the covid emergency, anyones fiscal policy set out even four months ago has now gone to the fairies, and every move by the government that is criticized will be met with AH BUT.

[IDM]

For many voters influenced by sound bites, they will have forgotten about Labour fiscal issues of a decade ago, being Trumped by the catalogue of lies and behaviour like Cummings’ eye test.

[Not Now Kato]

For many voters influenced by sound bites, they will have forgotten about Labour fiscal issues of a decade ago, being Trumped by the catalogue of lies and behaviour like Cummings’ eye test.

Sadly, there are an awful lot of people who see nothing wrong with what Cummings did then, (or has done in the past).  Even posters on here have said they'd have done the same!
 
I think selby is right, people are more influenced by the sound bites and banner headlines - and Cummings has become a master of their use.  An unelected bureaucrat running the country - unbelievable!

[IDM]

I couldn’t agree more.. sound bites, headlines, social media stories.. all without real substance.  Whether it is brexit or Johnson or Cummings, the real issues are lost in the details, or not even available in the case of brexit.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Billy, it may upset you, but it is reality, most voters just take in the sound bites

Like the 'austerity' soundbite that this thread is actually about and that you're completely ignoring.

[selby]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

I got as far as austerity from 2008 and gave up. You can't even get that right.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

The level of ignorance evidenced by that post is just beyond words. No wonder the Chinese think we are stupid to have a democratic system.

[Not Now Kato]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

[wilts rover]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

The Poverty Line in the UK is calculated at 60% of the average income.

[Pancho Regan]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

Do you type this stuff for your own amusement?

[IDM]

Glyn, austerity from 2008 was only for some people, it was a word in the papers, Mercedes, BMW, all the car producers never had it so good, house prices have rocketed,the holiday business has boomed, staycations forget it the world is our oyster, cruises anywhere in the world, if you have a card you can do anything, the weekends rip the towns and city centres apart its party time.
  What do you think the norm is food banks and soup kitchens, I don't think so, The front of the shop is the former for the vast majority.
  It might all be on credit, but what is not ever pointed out on this or other forums is that the official level of income now judged to put a family below the poverty line is £23,000 a year for a family with two children including rent  and that level of income is the reason politicians can point to the numbers in poverty increasing for their own ends. I don't know what the level of income is in Cairo for instance but I bet they wish they were on that income.

Do you type this stuff for your own amusement?

Naaa..

It’s just those monkeys with typewriters not yet ready to write Shakespeare.