Sadlier

[Chris Black come back]

I haven’t got the figure but those Championship years were I imagine at a colossal cost to Watson, Bramall and Ryan. They must have been putting in significantly more than the current c£2m our current owner(s) put in to the club to make us a going concern. There WAS investment on a massive scale but we still got relegated. 

[NewDonny]

Just my two penneth on this without the emotional attachment .

You guys say he is a very good player in league one which is fair enough and I wouldn't doubt it .

However he may have gone to the Championship but signing for Rotherham United suggests there wasn't exactly a host of clubs bidding for his signature .

There was a at least four or five of our players in our promotion team of 2018/19 who were top league one players , Cavare , McGeehan , Pinillos , Thiam .

And about four or five championship appearances behind them before they were binned on the strength they weren't good enough to make that step up .

He's signed for Rotherham , the best show in town as far as he's concerned .

You've lost a player to a local rival fair enough it ain't great but look at the bigger picture here .

All things point to a player who may not be up to the standard of championship football , if he was then Rotherham wouldn't be in the market for him .

He's freed up some spends .

Logical thinking on this one in my opinion .

Nothing at all logical about your post tbh Tyke. In fact probably just about wrong on every point. Simple question for you though, being a Barnsley supporter did you attend any Donny games this last season just gone?

I'm just offering an alternative opinion .

What I do know is that there are a good number of championship clubs who would be in the market for a very good league one talent , probably half the league .

The way it's played out is that he's gone to a championship club who were in the same division as yourselves last season .

So the evidence suggests he's a speculative punt by Rotherham because that's the market they operate in at championship level .

Fair play Tyke and apologies if my earlier reply was a little two pointed and direct, your opinion is valued the same as everyone else's as long as its not made up speculative nonsense which I guess is what I am driving at. Yours I can see now was/is just offering an alternative opinion.

[IDM]

BB why are you on here ?

Graingrover, what is your reason for asking that question? Are you suggesting that, in the capacity of a supporter, I shouldn't express my opinion and should instead be a happy clapping super fan?

Stay and post as much as you want as far as I am concerned.  We might even agree sometimes, but things would be very boring if everyone always had the same views..

[Campsall rover]

I haven’t got the figure but those Championship years were I imagine at a colossal cost to Watson, Bramall and Ryan. They must have been putting in significantly more than the current c£2m our current owner(s) put in to the club to make us a going concern. There WAS investment on a massive scale but we still got relegated.

Yes CBcb, but we were getting gates of 9,10,11,12 thousand competing against clubs who were getting over twice as many through the gate. Their income stream was way above ours.

What JR, TB, DW put in was enough just to make us be reasonably competitive. They would have had to put in Excess of £20 million every season to Consistently have a realistic chance of the top 6 in the Championship.

Yes i know there is always the one season which might have confounded the reality but they happen once in 15/20 years for a club of Rovers, Rotherham, Barnsley’s size.

I am quite sure ( no facts ) that Tony Stewart won’t be putting in more than 2/3 million in, out of his own pocket each season.
The advantage he has is Paul Warne has been given the opportunity to stay in his job & to build the team again even after getting relegated.

That’s what we need now with Darren Moore. If we get it i am confident that we will get back to the Championship in 2/3 years.
Now whether we stay there is another matter all together.
If we keep DM though, we can get back up again.

[DonnyOsmond]

They're overall a slightly bigger club than us but we have the bigger potential from having the larger town which is always growing. With success we can grow our fan base a fair bit.

For us as a club to get to the next level but not bankrupting us we need to be smart with signings, so we can grow our assets and sell them on for profit, ala Barnsley and Brentford. We also need to improve our youth coming through, if we can make a few million from them then we can upgrade to Cat 2 which would give us more of a pull and would mean we could keep our better youngsters easier. Going down the route of signing 30 year olds on one year deals will never grow us as a club like we did in 15-16. We're not the richest of clubs so we need to grow our income other ways to compete with bigger clubs.

[selby]

  Just who realistically do you think are the bigger(idiot)  club, us  or sides like Sheffield Wednesday and Derby who spent more on wages than  their total income?
 

[Campsall rover]

They're overall a slightly bigger club than us but we have the bigger potential from having the larger town which is always growing. With success we can grow our fan base a fair bit.

For us as a club to get to the next level but not bankrupting us we need to be smart with signings, so we can grow our assets and sell them on for profit, ala Barnsley and Brentford. We also need to improve our youth coming through, if we can make a few million from them then we can upgrade to Cat 2 which would give us more of a pull and would mean we could keep our better youngsters easier. Going down the route of signing 30 year olds on one year deals will never grow us as a club like we did in 15-16. We're not the richest of clubs so we need to grow our income other ways to compete with bigger clubs.

Please explain why you think Rotherham are a slightly bigger club than us. IMO they are definitely not.

If you look at recent Championship gates of both clubs since 2008 i think you will find our ave gate is higher than Rotherham’s at that level.
In league 1 they are above us because they bounced back to the Championship twice very quickly. 
We went down to League 2 & then played some turgid football under DF & consequently lost some fans for a couple of years..

[selby]

  I was told that their playing budget was £1.6 million more than ours last season, and having players still at the club from their season before in the Championship it was realistic.

[Filo]

  I was told that their playing budget was £1.6 million more than ours last season, and having players still at the club from their season before in the Championship it was realistic.

According to New Donny before he deleted his post, Sadlier was offered the same terms as his previous contract, not reduced terms as a lot of people suggested

[DonnyOsmond]

They're overall a slightly bigger club than us but we have the bigger potential from having the larger town which is always growing. With success we can grow our fan base a fair bit.

For us as a club to get to the next level but not bankrupting us we need to be smart with signings, so we can grow our assets and sell them on for profit, ala Barnsley and Brentford. We also need to improve our youth coming through, if we can make a few million from them then we can upgrade to Cat 2 which would give us more of a pull and would mean we could keep our better youngsters easier. Going down the route of signing 30 year olds on one year deals will never grow us as a club like we did in 15-16. We're not the richest of clubs so we need to grow our income other ways to compete with bigger clubs.

Please explain why you think Rotherham are a slightly bigger club than us. IMO they are definitely not.

If you look at recent Championship gates of both clubs since 2008 i think you will find our ave gate is higher than Rotherham’s at that level.
In league 1 they are above us because they bounced back to the Championship twice very quickly. 
We went down to League 2 & then played some turgid football under DF & consequently lost some fans for a couple of years..

They've spent more time in the 2nd tier historically and in the last 20 years than us and are currently there and we're not. We're similar sized clubs but they edge it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The point in fairness is that we didn't feel sadlier was worth a longer contract.  Would anyone have offered him longer terms last summer when he'd been a bit part player before that?

[silent majority]

  I was told that their playing budget was £1.6 million more than ours last season, and having players still at the club from their season before in the Championship it was realistic.

According to New Donny before he deleted his post, Sadlier was offered the same terms as his previous contract, not reduced terms as a lot of people suggested

According to the club he was offered an increased contract, which he chose not to take, but by all accounts it was still on the table.

[Filo]

  I was told that their playing budget was £1.6 million more than ours last season, and having players still at the club from their season before in the Championship it was realistic.

According to New Donny before he deleted his post, Sadlier was offered the same terms as his previous contract, not reduced terms as a lot of people suggested

According to the club he was offered an increased contract, which he chose not to take, but by all accounts it was still on the table.

Maybe thats why New Donny deleted his post quickly

[silent majority]

SM, the question is how much cash is pumped into Rotherham United every year in comparison.

The season that Rotherham came down from the Championship they made a profit of £3m, so the answer is very little pumped in, but they're obviously not a big spending club. If you can have a season in the Championship and make money then they're obviously not paying the salaries of other clubs at that level.

[silent majority]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

[EasyforDennis]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

[NewDonny]

The point in fairness is that we didn't feel sadlier was worth a longer contract.  Would anyone have offered him longer terms last summer when he'd been a bit part player before that?

I think things are getting all a bit distorted here.

Sadlier came in, in his first season off the back off having already played a full season in Ireland, the season over there starts in Jan with pre season, actual league games start in Feb and finish in Nov, so when he joined DRFC in Jan he was never going to be playing a big part in that season as he had been playing for almost a year non stop already. It was always planned that he would play a bigger part in his first full season, ie the one just gone which he obviously did.

[vaya]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

Why would they be in the black next year?

[DonnyOsmond]

We bring in enough without the top up from the directors to have a bottom half League One budget. The top up gets us around a top 8 League One budget. Up till now they're still making this commitment.

[silent majority]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

Your mixing things up a little here. The point was made that we could survive as a club without the support of the current owners (in practice its a lot easier to say than to do, but lets go with that for the time being) but not at the level we are currently. As I pointed out earlier, surviving at the level we are currently takes an additional £2m a year. We lose that £2m we would survive but not as a top half league 1 side, more like Lg2.

I fail to see why the accounts would be anything but what they are, and that will show us being sustained by the current owners.

[EasyforDennis]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

Why would they be in the black next year?

Who mentioned next year?

[vaya]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

Why would they be in the black next year?

Who mentioned next year?

Last season's - the next set.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The point in fairness is that we didn't feel sadlier was worth a longer contract.  Would anyone have offered him longer terms last summer when he'd been a bit part player before that?

I think things are getting all a bit distorted here.

Sadlier came in, in his first season off the back off having already played a full season in Ireland, the season over there starts in Jan with pre season, actual league games start in Feb and finish in Nov, so when he joined DRFC in Jan he was never going to be playing a big part in that season as he had been playing for almost a year non stop already. It was always planned that he would play a bigger part in his first full season, ie the one just gone which he obviously did.

Absolutely but on an objective point of view was there enough to justify a new contract at that point? No there wasn't in my opinion.  It is a risk to not offer it and fair enough if the player then moves on to me.

The other option is to gamble the other way and it go wrongly, just like happened with Alex Kiwomya. Either way is a risk.

In essence I don't blame them for not offering a new contract at that point just as only agreeing 18 months was probably the right thing to do as he was unproven at this level.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The old chestnut of Sustainability v self sufficiency. No matter how many times you explain things over the years, some folk either don't get it or choose not to get it.

The broad principle since the 'three Amigos' came together remained the same throughout and beyond. They agreed to put in £1m each, each season, then depending on any losses and/or exceptional costs/transfers they would cover the shortfall. Being able to do that year on year is sustainable not self sufficient.

When wages spiralled after a couple of years in the Championship and crowds declined, then relegation, then its not rocket science to work out costs needed to be reduced.

Once JR left the party, 3 becomes 2, so work that out. The inception of Club Doncaster was designed to create extra income to cover that hole. Over time it has succeeded and exceeded which has kept us competitive but the principle of committing £1m each per season remained.

What S_M has explained time after time is the owners choose to continue with that principle and have been happy to cover those additional losses when expenditure doesn't match income. Without the owners commitment we still have a club that generates income via Club Doncaster but your guess is a good as mine as to what level that could support long term.

Wind the clock on and 3 has now become 1 plus Club Doncaster revenue.

TB has said he will continue to support the Club however, whether he has committed to putting in more than his £1m plus losses, I do not know. Whatever it is, I'm grateful for it.

Given all the above, with two recent promotions to the Championship and a relegation, I would suspect Rotherhams income will have exceeded ours however, its also likely their costs, wage bill etc through legacy contracts etc will have been higher too. It would be foolish to compare like for like as our paths have not mirrored theirs. Just because we have broadly similar fan bases means bugger all except that at our level, costs are finite and each club has to cut its cloth accordingly. Similar with Barnsley who have adopted a different approach, gone through ownership change and dealt with promotions and relegations. It's beyond comparison.

The fact is, the more income you can generate, you can take proportionately bigger risks so I have no doubt Rotherham could offer proportionately more wages to Sadlier than it would be sensible for us to do. That's just the reality of now.

[elmsallrover]

I just think end of the day he wanted to play championship football don't think he cared were or how much. Money also with Ireland so close to the euros he probably see a better chance of getting into there squad

[wilts rover]

Are you sure that he has recently moved to Cambridge.

NewDonny says he has. Are you saying he is wrong or lying? You appear to know him:

New Donny, you know my personal thoughts my friend.
Good luck to Keiran and yourself in the future.

He lives in Cambrigde. Had house in Doncaster but not lived there for a couple of months now.

Rotherham for Sads I would imagine.

Why would you imagine that?

Local club so a convenient move, they’ll have seen him play several times this season and he’s unlikely to get anything above a lower-end Championship club. Not saying he’s going there but it’s a pretty reasonable suggestion.

OK I take your point, but he lives in Cambridge though so not sure Rotherham is all that local for him but why is it unlikely he will get anything above lower end Championship?

[mushRTID]

If Sadlier was offered the same terms (after coming in and not just establishing himself but being one of our better performers) he had every right to be disappointed and shop around.

[Campsall rover]

They're overall a slightly bigger club than us but we have the bigger potential from having the larger town which is always growing. With success we can grow our fan base a fair bit.

For us as a club to get to the next level but not bankrupting us we need to be smart with signings, so we can grow our assets and sell them on for profit, ala Barnsley and Brentford. We also need to improve our youth coming through, if we can make a few million from them then we can upgrade to Cat 2 which would give us more of a pull and would mean we could keep our better youngsters easier. Going down the route of signing 30 year olds on one year deals will never grow us as a club like we did in 15-16. We're not the richest of clubs so we need to grow our income other ways to compete with bigger clubs.

Please explain why you think Rotherham are a slightly bigger club than us. IMO they are definitely not.

If you look at recent Championship gates of both clubs since 2008 i think you will find our ave gate is higher than Rotherham’s at that level.
In league 1 they are above us because they bounced back to the Championship twice very quickly. 
We went down to League 2 & then played some turgid football under DF & consequently lost some fans for a couple of years..

They've spent more time in the 2nd tier historically and in the last 20 years than us and are currently there and we're not. We're similar sized clubs but they edge it.

It’s all about how you measure size. With football clubs it’s almost impossible as there are so many factors to take into consideration.
 
Well if both clubs were in the Premier League ( chance would be a fine thing ) Rovers would be getting 15,000 gates and Rotherham would be getting 12,000 gates.

In jest,  i rest my case me Lord.

[EasyforDennis]

Because they finished higher in the league.?

Are you saying that a 9th place finish (Covid or not) under DM, after the palaver of last summer - plus the way we were playing under DM and the direction we were going, is frustrating.?

That one of our local rivals finished above us and got promoted, matters little.

The question I ask is WHY they finished higher up the league. If it was because they pay higher wages then I suggest it isn't a very level playing pitch. If that is the case I can't see any reason why they can afford to invest more in the team than we can in ours. If it is down to our obsession with self-sufficiency maybe our investment bar is set a little too low compared to theirs.

Obsession with self sufficiency? Pumping in £2m a year hardly fits with that description BB.

Weren't we told that just before Covid struck the club didn't need the £2m financial input now as with the success of Club Doncaster we were self sufficient?

And your point is what exactly? I think its obvious that if the owners are pumping in £2m when they don't 'have' to then they're not obsessed with sustainability. What they're obsessed with is making sure DRFC can compete at a higher level while at the same time striving to bring the income level up to match the expenditure.

Well I keep reading that the directors are having to put in £2m a year to keep the club going. So you are saying that prior to Covid we was a totally sustainable club and the £2m was extra funding? In which case can we look forward to last seasons accounts being in the black?

Why would they be in the black next year?

Who mentioned next year?

Last season's - the next set.

Yes last seasons accounts which we will get this year. I would imagine due to Covid our accounts for this year wouldn't be so good. So how will that put us in the black next year?

[Barmby Rover]

Can't we just wish Sadlier well, he was a good player for us. I hope he keeps Rotherham up, and that the Dingles do the same. With a slightly different team let's hope we we join them.