A-Levels

[BillyStubbsTears]

get ready for things to change Boris' old headmaster is now up in arms

The 3rd and 4th paragraph on that second page...

You have to laugh don't you. I know that things have moved on since that letter was written, but just look at the leverage that Eton has, and compare it to Meccy Comp, if they reckon they were unfairly treated.

[Dutch Uncle]

Dutch.

That's all very well for Oxford and very laudible.

Further down the chain, Russell Group Universities have little wiggle room, hence these stories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53808233

It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.

Absolutely BST, and what a totally avoidable mess which affects young people's lives so much. Combination of wanting to be seen to be doing something when not interfering is the best option, not having a clue, not listening and total head in the sand when it goes wrong.   

[BillyStubbsTears]

Cummings' track record is current 0-2 so far as I can see.

He was pushing the utterly disastrous Herd Immunity policy back in February.

Now one of his Algorithmic Govt mates at OfQual has presided over this clusterf**k.

Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.

What scares the living bejaysus out of me is that one of Cummings' blog posts was about how we should use algorithms to determine our policy on nuclear weapons stance vis-a-vis the Russians.

God help us.

[belton rover]

Belton.
The issue you refer to on respect of opinions wasn't about the A-Level shambles. It was about your much more general approach of not criticising the Govt. Specifically, your opinion that the Govt had done OK in 2020.

Here's my post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980528#msg980528

I clearly said that I didn't respect your general opinion not because it was wrong, but because it was given without reasoning to support it. I have that opinion about anyone's opinions given without justification - mine included.

I wouldn't dream of questioning your more detailed knowledge of the examination process. In fact I explicitly referred to your "considerable knowledge" on that topic.

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980785#msg980785

PS. I still stand by my take that although your argument about appeals in normal times comes from a far more informed position than my own, it was meaningless ("irrelevant" would have been a slightly less unpleasant word) in this case because the problem wasn't assessment of papers, it was reprofiling of the marks across the board.

With regard to you ‘standing by your take’, I was replying to a link someone else was using to try to prove that THIS CURRENT appeal process was pointless. I can only comment on the links that are used as evidence/proof/respectability to opinions.

[Donnywolf]

It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.

That for me is the frightening thing - that unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of "hindsight" could be applied here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March

That was when the Exams for this season were scrapped in their usual format and from that point the Govt must have had a roadmap for delivering the grades for each and every Student but as late as Thursday Johnson and Williamson were calling their chosen syatem as "robust" and "not for changing"

We should have known as presumably it will now be in the history books along with "an Oven Ready" EU deal that wasnt and a "World Class (or World beating) Track and Trace System that wasnt

[BillyStubbsTears]

DW.

Aye. 5 months to sort this out and what a prize ominishambles it is.

Oh aye. By the way. The same Govt has 4 months to sort out our post-Brexit deal with the EU.

Nowt to worry about there then, eh?

[Donnywolf]

And Williamson has just been on BBC and Sky News and like an idiot I watched both (I must be a fool) and his explanation is / was lamentable

All he said basically on "a loop" is that all he wanted was a fair system for all youngsters and that he had put in a robust system of appeal - and that centre assessed grades were the fairest thing

Oh and he is committed to the UK having the worlds best Education system - and that is what he would be working towards

IMO - I think he is quite the least convincing Minister I have ever seen and torture to watch being interviewed and should return (or be returned to) being an MP where he could possibly be more in his depth

[belton rover]

Billy

If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.

Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.

You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).

[drfchound]

It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.

That for me is the frightening thing - that unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of "hindsight" could be applied here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March

That was when the Exams for this season were scrapped in their usual format and from that point the Govt must have had a roadmap for delivering the grades for each and every Student but as late as Thursday Johnson and Williamson were calling their chosen syatem as "robust" and "not for changing"

We should have known as presumably it will now be in the history books along with "an Oven Ready" EU deal that wasnt and a "World Class (or World beating) Track and Trace System that wasnt

Wolfie, “unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of hindsight could be applied”.
Surely not.

[belton rover]

‘Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.‘

Ha ha, Billy, it certainly is! You won’t enter politics for real, will you?

[Axholme Lion]

What I can't get my head around with all this is the fact that the kids are complaining about results for exams which they have not taken. They may well have done well in coursework and had they taken the exams totally flunked them. Some people are like that.  I think one valuable lesson they can take from all this is that real life isn't fair and you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you get what you need. 

[tommy toes]

Exams are an unfair way of assessing a person's ability anyway IMO.
Some are excellent at them others aren't. Same with interviews.
I worked for some truly appalling managers in the NHS who were shiit hot at interviews but useless at everything else.
Years ago there was talk of ending exams altogether and using continuous assessment instead. (Which needs to be more rigorous than this teacher assessment by the way)
Seems fairer to me.

[idler]

The thing is though if you have consistently achieved good results and are then given a lower grade how does that make you feel?
Course work is a good indicator rather than cramming for an exam and sailing through.

[belton rover]

And it will change again Tommy, when another minister will play politics with education and decide it’s all wrong and time to do things differently..
I know Gove couldn’t have predicted the happenings of 2020, but if he hadn’t made the appalling decision to revert back to exam only qualifications (not so much A level, but certainly GCSE) the situation wouldn’t have nearly as difficult.
You never know, one thing positive that might come out of this is that the government may realise that final exams should only be a percentage of the qualification.

I’m not holding my breath, though.

[Axholme Lion]

Exams are an unfair way of assessing a person's ability anyway IMO.
Some are excellent at them others aren't. Same with interviews.
I worked for some truly appalling managers in the NHS who were shiit hot at interviews but useless at everything else.
Years ago there was talk of ending exams altogether and using continuous assessment instead. (Which needs to be more rigorous than this teacher assessment by the way)
Seems fairer to me.

Continuous assessment is fine as long as the work is assessed independently. Teachers should not be allowed to assess pupils work from their own school.

[Axholme Lion]

The thing is though if you have consistently achieved good results and are then given a lower grade how does that make you feel?
Course work is a good indicator rather than cramming for an exam and sailing through.

But do you not think that an exam is a better indicator of working under pressure with time limitations. Better preparation for the real world maybe?

[idler]

I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?

[belton rover]

I think it has to be a combination of both to be a fair and more rounded system. Teachers are currently ‘forced’ to teach to the exam requirements. For example, a child studying English Literature will write about 5/6 different texts in their GCSE exam.
Because it is 100% exam based, many schools, from year 9 (sometimes earlier) teach the students nothing but that handful of texts for 3 years or more.
This prepares them for the exam, but drastically reduces their knowledge of literature and love of reading.
It’s a crying shame.

[Axholme Lion]

I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?

You're probably right.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Billy

If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.

Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.

You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).

Belton.

I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you

[belton rover]

I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?

You're probably right.

Billy

If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.

Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.

You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).

Belton.

I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you

I’m not surprised, Billy, what with me being ‘odd’.

Let me explain:
This fictional notion you have that ‘people’ (whoever they are) were saying In March this issue with the exams was always going to happen, so no question that any of this uproar has anything do do with hindsight.

With me so far?



Whenever predictions are made, someone will be proved right, that doesn’t mean everyone Knew what would happen, just that some may have guessed right.

Still with me?

I saw very little evidence that ‘people’ predicted this at all.

Perhaps the football metaphor was too much for you to contend with, so let’s try this:

Imagine this forum is a microcosm for ‘people’.
From March 18th, into April. I can’t find a single post from ‘people’ about the system never working and favouring the rich, and all these things you are suggesting were said. Fast forward to after the event, and everyone has an opinion (not literally, before you take me to task on misrepresentation).

Your desperation to try and claw back some respectability is not a good look.

[wilts rover]

Belton

At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?

We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.

The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.

The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.

When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.

Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?

Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.

[idler]

I know it’s hindsight but surely somebody should have used the algorithms on last year’s results to see how drastic the changes would be.
They would have had something to compare and estimate how accurate or not this year’s results were likely to be. It would have saved a lot of trouble and a further lack of trust in those responsible.

[albie]

Here is a helpful graphic to show the winners and losers in this shambles;
https://twitter.com/Edenrx298/status/1294262797254250497/photo/1

Now does anybody know if those who gained from the allocation of University places under the original award will be re-considered under the revision.

Some courses, such as Medicine, are highly sought after and once an offer is made and accepted, can it be rescinded to allow those who were disadvantaged by the first error to be considered?

If not, the lasting effects of the algorithmic bias are encoded for this years allocations.

[belton rover]

Belton

At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?

We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.

The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.

The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.

When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.

Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?

Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.

Same time as you, Wilts.

[wilts rover]

Exactly idler.

Did they not know? Or did they not care (becaue it was going to benefit public schools)?

There were reports in July by the TES & Commons Education Committee. Somebody knew five weeks ago.

https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1295630403026456576

[wilts rover]

Belton

At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?

We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.

The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.

The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.

When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.

Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?

Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.

Same time as you, Wilts.

That disappoints (but doesn't surprise) me Belton. Somebody should have been checking the thing! If examiners weren't involved - who was?

[belton rover]

If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?

And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.

[belton rover]

Belton

At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?

We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.

The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.

The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.

When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.

Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?

Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.

Same time as you, Wilts.

That disappoints (but doesn't surprise) me Belton. Somebody should have been checking the thing! If examiners weren't involved - who was?

Just to be clear, Wilts. I have no idea what the exam board knew, or was involved in, but as examiners, we were told our services wouldn’t be required in April.

[Janso]

If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?

And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.

People aren't morons just because they're Tories. But this Cabinet seems absolutely rammed with morons.