The Working Class And The Modern Labour Party

[tyke1962]

Interesting interview from Paul Embery author of a new book which comes out at the end of this month titled " Despised .... Why The Left Loaths The Working Class " .

Worth an hour of your time .


https://youtu.be/kvAphpNCkZY

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I cannot believe you are quoting Embery. He's 10 degrees further right than Farage.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

I cannot believe you are quoting Embery. He's 10 degrees further right than Farage.

Blue Labour activist and Fire Brigade Trade Union man , interesting view Billy but not completely unsurprising either from yourself .

[wilts rover]

What's your point Tyke, that Embury is right or wrong?

You were hailing George Galloway as the future for the working class vote not so long ago, so you are really covering all bases with him and Embury.

[tyke1962]

What's your point Tyke, that Embury is right or wrong?

You were hailing George Galloway as the future for the working class vote not so long ago, so you are really covering all bases with him and Embury.

I wasn't hailing Galloway at all I merely pointed out he'd formed a socialist party that wasn't for the liberal left and could eat  a piece out of the labour vote .

What's the problem with Embury then ? , does he perhaps hit a nerve or two ? .

I'd be very careful how you reply to that given your record at the ballot box of late .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

He's in bed with Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neill. They've gone so far off to the nutcase Left that they re-emerged on the far-right.

[Nudga]

f**kin excellent, another thread for Statler and Waldorf to share their vast and superior knowledge upon us.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

He's in bed with Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neill. They've gone so far off to the nutcase Left that they re-emerged on the far-right.

The interview in the link I provided offers no such right wing views  what so ever .

In fact it made a pleasant change to hear someone who is a Labour Party member and Trade Union man make the case .

Perhaps you'd do me the favour of actually watching the interview and then reply to the points he makes .

[Axholme Lion]

Tyke.

He's in bed with Claire Fox and Brendan O'Neill. They've gone so far off to the nutcase Left that they re-emerged on the far-right.

The interview in the link I provided offers no such right wing views  what so ever .

In fact it made a pleasant change to hear someone who is a Labour Party member and Trade Union man make the case .

Perhaps you'd do me the favour of actually watching the interview and then reply to the points he makes .

What an interesting interview. The man speaks a lot of common sense. If Labour supported the values he speaks of I would vote for them, but what do I know? As far as they are concerned I am just a piece of racist, working class scum. If they could get people like me, who are as he says economically left but socially conservative to vote for them, then they would be in power rather than become even more irrelevant.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Problem is AL, there isn't a majority in the country who are economically left wing and socially right wing. And the number who are are generally older and (literally) dying out.

If Labour moves right socially, it loses the young, the graduates, the urban professionals. It needs BOTH that group and the post-industrial working class to win. It loses if it only has one or the other.

We saw what happened 18 months ago, when Corbyn openly came out as anti-Brexit. Labour's poll ratings halved in three months. They got the worst vote share in national elections since WWI.

Labour needs to be a broad coalition if they are going to win. Embery has spent years arguing against that. And pushing a book whose central premise is that Labour despises the working class is not designed to build bridges. It's designed, deliberately, to make divisions even starker.

[Axholme Lion]

Problem is AL, there isn't a majority in the country who are economically left wing and socially right wing. And the number who are are generally older and (literally) dying out.

If Labour moves right socially, it loses the young, the graduates, the urban professionals. It needs BOTH that group and the post-industrial working class to win. It loses if it only has one or the other.

We saw what happened 18 months ago, when Corbyn openly came out as anti-Brexit. Labour's poll ratings halved in three months. They got the worst vote share in national elections since WWI.

Labour needs to be a broad coalition if they are going to win. Embery has spent years arguing against that. And pushing a book whose central premise is that Labour despises the working class is not designed to build bridges. It's designed, deliberately, to make divisions even starker.

I appreciate your point however I can only go by what I come across in my life, I would argue that many of the people I work with who are all at least twenty years younger than myself all have similar attitudes to what he is suggesting. If labour had this outlook they would in my humble opinion sweep to power. There is much more to this country than university educated metro types, it is these people which labour have forgotten whose votes really count. Most of the stuff I put on here is waffle, but yes I know the likes of BJ aren't really that bothered about the likes of me, so as far as I can see a patriotic, socially conservative labour party couldn't fail.

[selby]

  Someone on day time TV actually said there is no longer a working class, His theory was there is a non working class and a lower and higher middle class.
  He could well be right.

[tyke1962]

Problem is AL, there isn't a majority in the country who are economically left wing and socially right wing. And the number who are are generally older and (literally) dying out.

If Labour moves right socially, it loses the young, the graduates, the urban professionals. It needs BOTH that group and the post-industrial working class to win. It loses if it only has one or the other.

We saw what happened 18 months ago, when Corbyn openly came out as anti-Brexit. Labour's poll ratings halved in three months. They got the worst vote share in national elections since WWI.

Labour needs to be a broad coalition if they are going to win. Embery has spent years arguing against that. And pushing a book whose central premise is that Labour despises the working class is not designed to build bridges. It's designed, deliberately, to make divisions even starker.

A broad coalition seems to have been ignore the culturally right wing Billy and call them out as racist , ignorant and thick .

That's not a coalition .

Just because Embury calls it out doesn't mean he deliberately seeks to throw more fat on the fire I'd say he makes the case for the conversation to be had and it had better take place because otherwise the Labour Party can't unite effectively .

Preaching to the working class rather than representing them seems not to have worked too well .

His recommendation is that you build outwards from the core vote and catch the middle class and metropolitan vote from that position because the other way around hasn't proved too successful and the facts back that up .

That's not strengthening the divide Billy that's wanting to fix things within the Labour Movement .

If this conversation is difficult for people within the Labour Party and they believe they know better and are still blaming the voters rather than themselves then we may as well all go our seperate ways and be done with it altogether .

[Campsall rover]

  Someone on day time TV actually said there is no longer a working class, His theory was there is a non working class and a lower and higher middle class.
  He could well be right.

If inwas happy with the word class i would agree with that Brian.
The old doctrine of the “Working Class” is dead.
Hence why Corbynism has as much chance as succeeding as Trump has of being the next UK Prime Minister.

People may have working class roots but very few are thinking of themselves now as traditional Working Class. They will only vote Labour if they think they are the best choice. Not just because where they come from or who their parents voted for dictates their choice.

[wilts rover]

If people believe that a party funded by billionaires to elect millionaires to parliament has their best interests at heart - then good luck voting for them. Whatever Paul Embury says.

[tyke1962]

If people believe that a party funded by billionaires to elect millionaires to parliament has their best interests at heart - then good luck voting for them. Whatever Paul Embury says.

Still stating the red wall voters were wrong then Wilts , we've lost last four elections and a referendum and it's the voters who are getting it wrong !!!! .

Remarkable .

[scawsby steve]

If people believe that a party funded by billionaires to elect millionaires to parliament has their best interests at heart - then good luck voting for them. Whatever Paul Embury says.

Still stating the red wall voters were wrong then Wilts , we've lost last four elections and a referendum and it's the voters who are getting it wrong !!!! .

Remarkable .

Nail, head, nutshell.

That's exactly what's wrong with the Labour Party and it's supporters. They constantly turn on each other and implode from within.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Which is precisely why I'm saying that Labour will never win unless it finds a way of keeping both types of supporter happy. And why Embery isn't, and never has been interested in that concept. He thrives on division, and he's in perfect company with the bunch of ex-Revolutionary Communists, turned extremist Libertarians at Spiked.

Anyone who thinks they are the answer to the Left's problems is away with the fairies.

[wilts rover]

Recent polling would indicate that red wall voters also think they were wrong, tyke.

Recent stories in the press regarding cronyism and multi-million contracts for mates would also indicate I am correct.

If people wish to vote for the Tory Party thats up to them - but don't be suprised when you get the Tory Party. Tell us how great it is going to be for the next three years.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

Aye. It is truly a bizarre situation where Labour under Starmer makes up a 25% gap in the polls, and today we have Lavery and Trickett self-importantly presenting a report that they wrote into Labour's failure at the last election, and telling Starmer he has to apologise to the Labour movement because it was all his fault.

I'd have thought this was time for a bit of humility from the people who controlled the Labour party when it was at 18% in the polls 18 months back.

[tyke1962]

Wilts.

Aye. It is truly a bizarre situation where Labour under Starmer makes up a 25% gap in the polls, and today we have Lavery and Trickett self-importantly presenting a report that they wrote into Labour's failure at the last election, and telling Starmer he has to apologise to the Labour movement because it was all his fault.

I'd have thought this was time for a bit of humility from the people who controlled the Labour party when it was at 18% in the polls 18 months back.

A bit of humility now that's funny .

Labour have been hemorrhaging votes in the red wall for two decades and a renegade on their election manifesto to suit the metropolitan graduate class .

Starmer drove the final nail in Labour's coffin with his brexit strategy in the red wall and you want humility based on opinion polls and not one policy from Starmer yet to see the light of day .

How convenient Corbyn must be for you lot , remind me how many elections were lost before he came on the scene ? .

I was no Corbynite myself but he came to be leader because the Labour Party were so fecking useless .

At least Corbyn spoke out about austerity which is more than can be said for the rest of that sorry lot in the party at that time .

[tyke1962]

Recent polling would indicate that red wall voters also think they were wrong, tyke.

Recent stories in the press regarding cronyism and multi-million contracts for mates would also indicate I am correct.

If people wish to vote for the Tory Party thats up to them - but don't be suprised when you get the Tory Party. Tell us how great it is going to be for the next three years.

The only vindication your going to get from me Wilts is at the ballot box .

You've overestimated the size of your tribe for many years now and it fails to stack up on election or referendum day .

Perhaps economics is second to culture Wilts for all you and I know inside the former red wall .

If the Tories remain tough on immigration and law and order they may vote for them again .

The winning space is economically to the left and culturally to the right , rocket science it ain't .

This of course forces the Labour Party to refrain from hiding like cowards behind their security blanket and throwing the bigot , racist and thick card and actually start addressing what the electorate inside these communities actually want to see .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

Billy , Corbyn forced the Tories in to a coalition government with the Ulster Unionists in 2017 on an anti austerity and respect the referendum ticket , that's all we need to know .

The problem with your view of liberalism is that whilst it recognises minorities and gives em a voice and meaning as individuals it's totally wiped away because you hitch your wagon to neoliberalism through  EU membership .

You can't see the flaw can you ? .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

2017 was a different world to 2015. UKIP had vanished. There were several million of their votes to be divvied up. And as I've said repeatedly, Corbyn played a blinder by letting Remain supporters think he was in their side and Leave supporters think he was on their side.

And I predicted in 2017 what would happen to that when he was forced to come down on one side or the other. Whichever side he came down on, the other side would leave him.

He came out for Leave at Xmas 2018. Labour were at 42-43% in the polls. By June 2019, Labour was at 21-22% in the polls and had performed a miracle in resurrecting a dead LD party.

If you don't acknowledge that, your living a self-indulgent dream.

Brexit has gone now. The task for the current Labour leader is to convince enough of the Red Wall working class and the University city young metropolitans that Labour is the party for both of them. The fact that Starmer has turned round a 25% deficit in the polls in 6 months suggests he's off to a flyer on that score.

If course it might not last. But I will guarantee you it won't last if the divisive politics of Embery got hold of the Labour party. It would be a comfort blanket for 15-20% of the population and curtains for any chance of Labour taking power.

Your attitude suggests to me that you would prefer the perfect Labour party that you want, losing, rather than a difficult, tightrope compromise winning.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

2017 was a different world to 2015. UKIP had vanished. There were several million of their votes to be divvied up. And as I've said repeatedly, Corbyn played a blinder by letting Remain supporters think he was in their side and Leave supporters think he was on their side.

And I predicted in 2017 what would happen to that when he was forced to come down on one side or the other. Whichever side he came down on, the other side would leave him.

He came out for Leave at Xmas 2018. Labour were at 42-43% in the polls. By June 2019, Labour was at 21-22% in the polls and had performed a miracle in resurrecting a dead LD party.

If you don't acknowledge that, your living a self-indulgent dream.

Brexit has gone now. The task for the current Labour leader is to convince enough of the Red Wall working class and the University city young metropolitans that Labour is the party for both of them. The fact that Starmer has turned round a 25% deficit in the polls in 6 months suggests he's off to a flyer on that score.

If course it might not last. But I will guarantee you it won't last if the divisive politics of Embery got hold of the Labour party. It would be a comfort blanket for 15-20% of the population and curtains for any chance of Labour taking power.

Your attitude suggests to me that you would prefer the perfect Labour party that you want, losing, rather than a difficult, tightrope compromise winning.

Embury hasn't told me anything I didn't know already Billy but as I stated earlier it was warming to hear the case made from my own perspective .

What I'm seeking from such as yourself is an indication that you recognise that culture is at the heart of this continuation of the demise of the Labour Party .

Winning on economics isn't enough , simple as that .

Anytime the metropolitan and graduate class want to hitch their wagon to tight immigration laws , parameters within globalisation , tougher laws on knife crime and refrain from shoving diversity down my throat then that's totally fine .

My kind of people founded this party and won elections and rights through struggle so spare me the difficulties rhetoric please , the metropolitan voter couldn't spell struggle matey .

You've had your go and failed miserably so let's have some common sense shall we .

[Axholme Lion]

  Someone on day time TV actually said there is no longer a working class, His theory was there is a non working class and a lower and higher middle class.
  He could well be right.

I am working class. I get up every day and go to work as did all my forefathers. Just because I have a nice car and a detached bungalow it doesn't change a thing. I am the next rung up from the benefits class.

[Axholme Lion]

Tyke.

If you're going to make those sorts of arguments, you need to get the facts right.

Milliband and Balls hammered relentlessly against Austerity. There were massive and I mean MASSIVE differences between Labour and Tory spending plans in the 2015 election.

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7525

And Labour's vote went up greatly in the Red Wall seats in 2015. 5% in Doncaster North. 8% in Don Valley. 9% in Doncaster Central.

Labour were hammered in 2015 because they lost Scotland to the Nationalist surge. And that hit them in the Midlands and South England because Cameron played the card Vote Milliband - Get Sturgeon in a Coalition.

In 2017, for all their rhetoric, Corbyn and McDonnell' anti Austerity spending plans were barely a penny different from Milliband and Balls's. It is simply wrong to say that Labour had embraced Austerity before Corbyn and he put them on a different track.

Meanwhile, as I keep asking, what is the route to power if Labour goes socially conservative as you and AL wish? What is the point of securing 70 Red Wall seats and losing 150 in University cities? Which is what they were looking at in mid 2019. Tell me how the numbers stack up by Labour taking the direction you want.

The way I am reading what you are saying is coming across to me as labour no longer want/need the traditional working class vote? If that's the case maybe it's the reason they haven't been in power for ages? I would imagine many of the abandoned working class voters do not jump at the chance of voting tory but at the last election felt they had nowhere else to go. Labour seems to be obsessed with identity politics which only divides the nation, I would imagine most people aren't really bothered about if their neighbours are gay, black or whatever, they just want their families and communities to do well, have decent jobs and a better life. It may not be trendy and at the forefront of dinner party talk in Islington and the student common room but that's how most people are I reckon. If labour feels these people are not worth bothering with then they will never win.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL.

I'm not sure where you read that from. I've lost count of how many times in the last couple of days I've written that Labour needs BOTH the old working class northern seats AND the young University cities.

[Axholme Lion]

AL.

I'm not sure where you read that from. I've lost count of how many times in the last couple of days I've written that Labour needs BOTH the old working class northern seats AND the young University cities.

Sorry, that's how I took the gist of what you were saying regarding university types. I think they have backed the wrong horse numbers wise. I can't see how you can muster enough numbers of that type to win an election. Apart from certain urban areas vast swathes of England fall into the socially conservative group.