All Electric v Petrol/Diesel

[River Don]

How will an all electric car compare with a petrol vehicle in terms of ownership,,assuming the government switches from taxing fuel directly to taxing miles travelled as is being suggested and assuming subsidies will be scrapped as electric cars become more popular?

I guess the ICE car will be cheaper to run? But then I expect the government will start applying sin taxes, such as charging in low emission zones to these vehicles anyway.

I have a feeling motoring is going to become more expensive generally.

[Bentley Bullet]

We'll pay something like a quid every 100 miles we do.

[Donnywolf]

I think Governments of all colours will need to "recoup" all their spending done in the Virus era - and just as we only recently paid off our World War 2 spending they will get it back "however and from wherever" it comes from

There is no way our Govts (of whatever colour) can lose a massive chunk of taxation like that going forwards so expect to pay b-i-g

Subsidies have been there for a while but they were withdrawn - and will probably be again once its a fait accompli. Lower or no Road tax - I was getting £0 taxation at one point due to my cars lack of emissions are already mostly phased out and are gradually creeping up

Charging up is much cheaper on the face of it but who can envisage a time when its still as cheap as it is now ? So the motorist will face higher and higher bills via taxation and of course the generators of the power that is supplied will see it as a chance to raise prices and so gradually I expect the cost of motoring will as River Don says in hs last sentence  "is going to become more expensive generally."

One good point is those that eveade Road Tax now (ahem we know who they are mostly) will at last be included via paying taxation for charging - unless "they" are hooked up to the nearest Lamp post of course

[Axholme Lion]

It will never work. We get power cuts every week in West Butterwick now. The national grid will take decades to get up to the task.

[selby]

  Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
  The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to  a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.

[SydneyRover]

Unfortunately greenhouse emmissions can't be scrubbed selby

[Filo]

  Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
  The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to  a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.

Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems

[River Don]

  Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
  The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to  a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.

Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems

Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.

[Filo]

  Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
  The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to  a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.

Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems

Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.

Now I’m back with a Diesel, I shall be using only Shell Vpower, nearest one to me is Glews Garage at Goole, like you say a short blast down the motorway helps keep the engine in good condition. I like the premium fuels and believe in them, the X3 I just got rid of was petrol and only had Tesco Momentum 99 octane

[dknward2]

I would recommend anyone to watch evm on YouTube he is a Yorkshire man so knows about saving money and is very fair and debunks a lot of the myths of ev ownership

[Axholme Lion]

  Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
  The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to  a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.

Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems

Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.

Now I’m back with a Diesel, I shall be using only Shell Vpower, nearest one to me is Glews Garage at Goole, like you say a short blast down the motorway helps keep the engine in good condition. I like the premium fuels and believe in them, the X3 I just got rid of was petrol and only had Tesco Momentum 99 octane

The premium fuel is definitely worth the extra. It has cleaning additives to keep your engine in top shape. I also only use Shell V Power. Also the E number is 5. Apparently normal petrol is set to move to E10. This is a level of 10% ethanol in the fuel, however the premiums will stay at 5 which is another good reason to use it.

[albie]

Bloomberg New Energy Finance 2020 looks at the prospect for the change to electric for the finance community.

It includes the following about the international progress;
 "Electric vehicles (EVs) reach upfront price parity with Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles before 2025, spurring faster adoption thereafter".

What that means is that the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is obsolete from that point.

Anyone owning a ICE vehicle going forward will pay additional taxation over and above that for electric.
Road pricing per mile is likely, tapered to impacts on the environment. Running costs are 10x higher per mile for ICE compared to electric.

With battery costs reducing at 18% per year, the pace of change is getting faster.
ICE is simply not competitive on economic grounds beyond the point at which upfront costs converge.

[River Don]

ICE drivers already pay a lot more tax in fuel duty. When they start taxing by mileage, I'd have thought that would bring electric drivers more in line.

As you say though, the government will probably keep taxation unattractive for ICE vehicles.

[Axholme Lion]

Bloomberg New Energy Finance 2020 looks at the prospect for the change to electric for the finance community.

It includes the following about the international progress;
 "Electric vehicles (EVs) reach upfront price parity with Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles before 2025, spurring faster adoption thereafter".

What that means is that the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is obsolete from that point.

Anyone owning a ICE vehicle going forward will pay additional taxation over and above that for electric.
Road pricing per mile is likely, tapered to impacts on the environment. Running costs are 10x higher per mile for ICE compared to electric.

With battery costs reducing at 18% per year, the pace of change is getting faster.
ICE is simply not competitive on economic grounds beyond the point at which upfront costs converge.

I would pay more for the convenience and practicality of a petrol engine, but I don't see why I should.

[albie]

AL,

It is because driving a petrol/diesel vehicle imposes costs on others, via pollution impacts.
You will still be able to choose, but increasingly one option will cost more than the other, to reflect the policy objective.

As battery cost is the principal element in upfront cost, as these reduce it will become a no brainer.

When you talk about convenience and practicality, keep in mind an ICE has about 2000 parts, an EV much less (20 or so, model dependent). What does that mean for maintenance costs?

[Filo]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

[Axholme Lion]

AL,

It is because driving a petrol/diesel vehicle imposes costs on others, via pollution impacts.
You will still be able to choose, but increasingly one option will cost more than the other, to reflect the policy objective.

As battery cost is the principal element in upfront cost, as these reduce it will become a no brainer.

When you talk about convenience and practicality, keep in mind an ICE has about 2000 parts, an EV much less (20 or so, model dependent). What does that mean for maintenance costs?

That's another thing. I work in a parts department and the only thing that we sell which we make any money on at all is service parts. The discounts we get from the manufacturer on anything other than filters and brake discs is pathetic. People imagine dealers make loads of money on parts but it is just not true. The profit margin on say a twenty pound part is quite often less than a couple of quid and then people ask for discount. All the money is made by the greedy manufacturers.

But while we are on about batteries why are the greens not up in arms about the child labour mining the raw materials in the Congo.

[albie]

AL,

New battery chemistry looks to avoid the cobalt and rare minerals on cost grounds.

I agree that the service industries are going to face massive disruption, this is what happens when an old technology is replaced by a much more efficient alternative.

No good taking the King Canute attitude....it is going to happen, and soon, because of economics.
The governments know it, so need to revise their tax base.
The car makers know it, so are scrambling to get their electric range in the shop window.

[the vicar]

Electric car

[the vicar]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

[StocktonRover]

The range of EVs is a major issue for me.

I travel in excess of 40k miles a year (over half of that being work mileage) with regular single one way journeys of around 250 miles and round trips of 300 miles at times.

Attending the Keepmoat is around 200 mile round trip and most away games are far more than that.

What concerns me is being able to find an EV charging point at a convenient location on the route and it not in use already, along with the time spent waiting for it to charge.

No doubt charging points on motorway services will offer a recharge at a much higher cost than
Elsewhere as they do with fuel, but with fuel you can plan to avoid them by filling up before long motorway journeys.

[Filo]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

Yes, I’m not sure theres an EV on the market that can tow a Caravan

[dknward2]

Axhomle I also work in a parts department currently mercedes and Audi before that.

Service parts will go down of course and less mechanics will be needed however more electrical training will be needed.

Cars will still crash people will still try and steal them or vandalise them so parts will still get sold.

Batteries are lasting longer than daily mail readers will have you believe and some manufacturers are doing battery swap stations in China this is very popular due to people not having driveway or live in apartments away from parking. A battery swap takes around 5 mins and you book a slot which is no longer than it takes to refuel and normal car

Most people will just charge overnight and have a full car every morning.

I recommend people watch evm on YouTube about the range of miles people claim they need

Stockton you seem to be a special case of needing 300 miles regularly and only top end Tesla can manage this at the minute same for towing caravans and heavy trailers

I know the Kia eniro does around 270miles to a full charge so you would need a full charge at home then a short charge or at the place you are working at as more and more places will be getting them.

[the vicar]

There isn’t so how are they going to address that problem I wonder.  There is going to be hundreds of thousands of people losing there jobs.  Oh and I forgot there will be all the caravan sites closing to

[BillyStubbsTears]

The range of EVs is a major issue for me.

I travel in excess of 40k miles a year (over half of that being work mileage) with regular single one way journeys of around 250 miles and round trips of 300 miles at times.

Attending the Keepmoat is around 200 mile round trip and most away games are far more than that.

What concerns me is being able to find an EV charging point at a convenient location on the route and it not in use already, along with the time spent waiting for it to charge.

No doubt charging points on motorway services will offer a recharge at a much higher cost than
Elsewhere as they do with fuel, but with fuel you can plan to avoid them by filling up before long motorway journeys.

Stockton.

As we transition to majority EV use, the provision of charging points will expand.

Go back 120 years. Imagine telling a ICE sceptic that within a few years there would be petrol stations every few miles.

[dknward2]

Vicar people will still be able to buy a petrol or diesel car if manufacturers still sell them up until 2030 that's another 10 years.

Batteries will continue to improve and if people demand it manufacturers will build it otherwise others will and they will lose sales there are EVs out there that can tow a caravan, Tesla's are one

[dknward2]

Stockton also maybe worth checking out gridserve they are building out motorway service style fast charging network so maybe something for you to look at when you are ready for your next car

[IDM]

Also - I think - it is only full on new petrol/diesel vehicles which will be banned then.  Hybrids should still be OK..

[ravenrover]

There will need to be re-charge point at every space at Service Stations. Can you imagine travelling to Cornwall on holiday in an EV having to re-charge a couple of times en route you could spend more time waiting for a charging point to become available than actually on holiday

[albie]

Over 20,000 charging points and rising every week;
https://www.zap-map.com/

Range per charge is also rising with new models.