All Electric v Petrol/Diesel

[IDM]

To further my point above, surely there will be a period of transition with the hybrid vehicles.?

[StocktonRover]

I thought they said hybrids would not be sold beyond 2035?

[dknward2]

Also - I think - it is only full on new petrol/diesel vehicles which will be banned then.  Hybrids should still be OK..

Until 2035

[albie]

Yes, the ban on new hybrids will start in 2035.

There is no need for a hybrid once EV range extends sufficient to ease anxiety.
Hybrid is a transition technology, which requires 2 separate systems on board, increasing costs to manufacturers.

I doubt anyone will still be making/selling hybrids by 2035.

[i_ateallthepies]

I can fill my car and get 700miles range in about five minutes.  How does charging time and range of EV compare?

[albie]

Pies,

It depends on whether you are using a rapid charger, and how much juice is in the battery.

I think people need to re-think the idea of "filling up".
You don't need a full tank for the vast majority of trips....you need sufficient.

People are going to top up at supermarkets, leisure centres and the like. Plug-in while you are doing summat else!

Its not like you are going to run it down to empty before topping up.
It would be like driving down the motorway until you stopped, then getting out the jerry can and walking to the nearest filling station.

[Filo]

I’m sure I read somewhere a couple of years ago that technology is around to build induction charging into road surfaces

[Donnywolf]

I can fill my car and get 700miles range in about five minutes.  How does charging time and range of EV compare?

At the moment just over 400 miles on a charge is top "scorer" and its a Tesla

It would take 8 hours ish to "charge up" at home

[Donnywolf]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?

Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too

[i_ateallthepies]

Thanks guys.  Albie, that's a valid point about topping up between charges that's the change in mentality around the subject that will make it work.  Nevertheless, ultimate range and charging from near empty remain obstacles at this point in time.

[Filo]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?

Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too

A car with a high end top speed (horse power) is not a good indicator of its pulling power, which is Torque, Torque is is the amount of leverage an engine can generate eg the force of a piston on the crankshaft, horsepower is Torgue X RPM and is a measurement of how quickly an engine can accomplish its task. You don’t see tractors going fast, but you see them pulling heavy loads

[Bentley Bullet]

it's like comparing a thoroughbred racehorse with a Shire horse. Or Mo Farah competing against Geoff Capes in a 20-meter race, pulling a lorry.

Horses for courses.

[the vicar]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?

Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too

no they can’t, as it goes on curb side weight and if you made it the same comparison to the weight of an electric car then a caravan would be the same weight as a biscuit box and if they were any lighter they would get blown about on a motorway.  If a electric car could pul a caravan the battery would probably last 50 miles service stations would be chocker block and take hours to get your car charged with everyone waiting for a slot

[Janso]

Because technology never improves over time, does it.

[dknward2]

Because technology never improves over time, does it.

Of course it doesn't I love my brick size phone with the suitcase size battery

[River Don]

I think I will wait and see.

The car you have now is the greenest car because manufacturing a new car, electric or conventional is where the bulk of emissions are released. I only do quite a low mileage in an economic car. I will have a relatively low carbon footprint.

If electric cars really do become a no brainer in the next five years, I'll consider changing but the way things are, it's difficult to believe there will be such a rapid advance. I think the challenge of installing charging infrastructure will continue to hold the electric revolution back.

Keeping the current car longer makes the most sense to me.

[the vicar]

Yes they do change but with the curb side weight of a elec car and the weight of a caravan the torque of the sed car

[drfchound]

I seem to remember a few years back that everyone would have solar panels on their roof by now.

[River Don]

I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.

They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

The Cameron Government slashed the subsidies for roof PV panels before the industry was well enough established to stand on its own. Because...Austerity innit.

It's an industry that relies on a mass market to drive down prices. They've continued to fall in other countries.

USA.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/e5C1Iq3DUS_tTPPh9TM9gIfpifPeazV_T8r4YIffwV5WZbkbQN_ZF0D6rqOUZmv4_z7A6_V-EFHzShtNb3DJF3oCrEgXaTeTsoV_BOp36JBvKDI9_xcJ2_Lklu-tUEbhgpQI-WO4rOgc_R9rWccb9K76ZSQGz1NoTsEo

Japan.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/statistics/re/img/graph_sun02.png

But here, there's been no reduction in cost since the subsidies were slashed.

https://www.solarguide.co.uk/data/imagecache/content_images/wpimages-solarguide.co.uk/2018/08/27125009/Cost-of-a-4kW-Solar-PV-System-UK-1.png

[drfchound]

I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.

They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?

Funnily enough, I heard a news article earlier today which told about future homes being so well insulated that they wouldn’t even need a heating boiler.

[River Don]

I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.

They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?

Funnily enough, I heard a news article earlier today which told about future homes being so well insulated that they wouldn’t even need a heating boiler.

Passiv Haus standards pretty much do that already. But in the UK house builders still aren't required to make sure new buildings are really properly insulated.

[drfchound]

Hound.

The Cameron Government slashed the subsidies for roof PV panels before the industry was well enough established to stand on its own. Because...Austerity innit.

It's an industry that relies on a mass market to drive down prices. They've continued to fall in other countries.

USA.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/e5C1Iq3DUS_tTPPh9TM9gIfpifPeazV_T8r4YIffwV5WZbkbQN_ZF0D6rqOUZmv4_z7A6_V-EFHzShtNb3DJF3oCrEgXaTeTsoV_BOp36JBvKDI9_xcJ2_Lklu-tUEbhgpQI-WO4rOgc_R9rWccb9K76ZSQGz1NoTsEo

Japan.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/statistics/re/img/graph_sun02.png

But here, there's been no reduction in cost since the subsidies were slashed.

https://www.solarguide.co.uk/data/imagecache/content_images/wpimages-solarguide.co.uk/2018/08/27125009/Cost-of-a-4kW-Solar-PV-System-UK-1.png

Precisely BST.
So who is certain that subsidies will continue for the EV projects.
As has been said often enough by myself and others on here, there are many obstacles in the way of getting us all into electric vehicles by 2030.

[albie]

Hound,

Difference is;
1 Government policy is in favour. All other parties agree.
2 The industry has made a decision. re-tooling factories to produce EV rather than ICE.
3 Financial players have moved. R+D is into batteries, not legacy tech.
4 The economics is so heavily in favour long term, that to miss out now might mean missing for good.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/gm-batteries-cut-electric-car-costs-increase-range-74299299

The interesting point no-one has mentioned is the assumption about the cost of electricity in future years.

Demand will increase, but so will low cost provision from offshore wind.
The battery revolution resulting from the R+D investment can also support storage capacity at low marginal cost.

The move to EV should be seen alongside the disruption of the energy sector...they speak to each other.

[Donnywolf]

TBF - I posted this re electricity prices in #2

Charging up is much cheaper on the face of it but who can envisage a time when its still as cheap as it is now ? So the motorist will face higher and higher bills via taxation and of course the generators of the power that is supplied will see it as a chance to raise prices and so gradually I expect the cost of motoring will as River Don says in hs last sentence  "is going to become more expensive generally."

[drfchound]

Hound,

Difference is;
1 Government policy is in favour. All other parties agree.
2 The industry has made a decision. re-tooling factories to produce EV rather than ICE.
3 Financial players have moved. R+D is into batteries, not legacy tech.
4 The economics is so heavily in favour long term, that to miss out now might mean missing for good.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/gm-batteries-cut-electric-car-costs-increase-range-74299299

The interesting point no-one has mentioned is the assumption about the cost of electricity in future years.

Demand will increase, but so will low cost provision from offshore wind.
The battery revolution resulting from the R+D investment can also support storage capacity at low marginal cost.

The move to EV should be seen alongside the disruption of the energy sector...they speak to each other.

Just to be clear albie, I am not against switching to electronic cars.
I understand all the points that you made are valid ones but like previous initiatives, there are lots of things that might conspire to bring failure of meeting the 2030:target date.
If we are all still here in ten years time we can review this discussion.

[Donnywolf]

Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere

and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers

Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?

Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too

A car with a high end top speed (horse power) is not a good indicator of its pulling power, which is Torque, Torque is is the amount of leverage an engine can generate eg the force of a piston on the crankshaft, horsepower is Torgue X RPM and is a measurement of how quickly an engine can accomplish its task. You don’t see tractors going fast, but you see them pulling heavy loads

Yep agree 100% - I wasnt saying that an Formula E car could pull a Caravan just that surely if the brains exist to get an 800 kilo car as high as 174 mph - those same brains could channel that power into whatever it needs to produce torque

As i said in a different Post I followed a Car Transporter with 8 Amazon all Electic vans yesterday and in the fullness of time the Lorry itself will surely go all electric meaning (neccesity is the mother of invention) it will be easy to get Cars to pull Caravans

Wonder what the pulling power of the Vans is as of right now for example - they are big and going to be big and full soon

[dknward2]

https://electriccarsreport.com/2020/11/bmw-investing-e400m-in-a-new-vehicle-assembly-in-munich/

Link about BMW refitting their Munich plant to make all electric cars

Chinese company BYD make a all electric lorry that does around 150 miles fully loaded which doesn't sound alot but would work as a last mile delivery vehicle.

Tesla's semi truck (as americans call them) will be out in the USA within the next few years with an expected range of 300 to 400 miles or 6 hours of driving which is about right for that use

[selby]

  We  were very near to big power cuts because of demand just a couple of weeks ago when wind power output was poor.
  As I have posted I think that if any major motor company gets it right and goes with Hydrogen they have a right good chance of cleaning up, as has the aluminium air battery if the will and investment is there.
 But I can never understand why solar Panels are not a planning requirement on all new buildings especially the big industrial buildings when they will install solar farms on perfectly good agricultural land covering acres and requiring civil work to connect to the grid that is an automatic requirement to new buildings.
 The only advantage of solar farms at the moment is to the land owner who gets a bigger return than farming the land.

[River Don]

It's why I'm still sceptical about solar panels Selby.

If they were really an effective economic power source, surely the likes of Amazon and Ikea would be covering the roofs of their megawarehouses with them and selling electric to the grid.