Fans reaction at Millwall to BLM

[drfchound]

Unbelievable that some people thing taking the knee is wrong.  No one is asking you to do it.  It doesn't get in the way of the game, just as the 'group hug' or the handshaking with players who've already been with each other in the changing room doesn't.  Or perhaps you think the players should just run out of the tunnel, line up and get on with the game?

NNK, I’m not sure if your above comment was aimed at me but if it was, why are you suggesting that I think that the players should not do the knee thing or just run out and get on with the game.
(Which is what has happened in at least three of our away games this season so far).

[wilts rover]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

But's it you that is doing the preaching - telling people what they can do and what symbolism can and cannot be adopted by Millwall.

The 'fans' had the opportunity to ignore it if they didn't like it. They chose not to. This is the consequence of those actions.

It's no-one elses fault other than the people who carried it out.

[normal rules]

The Millwall supporters club have released an official statement, worthy of a read. The most significant bit for me is the quote in it from Les Ferdinand.

There is an argument that the gesture itself has run its course, none more eloquently put than our next opponents’ Director of Football, Les Ferdinand:

   “The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’ but little more than that.                The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.”

   “What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next ten years but see no actual progress made?”

   “Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game - actions will.”

[Axholme Lion]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

But's it you that is doing the preaching - telling people what they can do and what symbolism can and cannot be adopted by Millwall.

The 'fans' had the opportunity to ignore it if they didn't like it. They chose not to. This is the consequence of those actions.

It's no-one elses fault other than the people who carried it out.

It's not the player's club. They're paid handsomely to do a job, they can't even do that very well, not to preach. None of them are fit to wear the shirt.
What you're saying then is it's ok for them to broadcast their opinion but the fans have no right to reply? If that's the case we really are living in East Germany or North Korea.

[MachoMadness]

I think everyone (unless they have been living in a cave) has got the message now. By carrying on there is always the risk (As has been shown on this forum) that more and more people are going to get wound up? 

There is. But there always has been, for decades. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. In the vast majority of polls I've seen from decades past (I posted one earlier in the thread), the majority has always opposed civil rights movements and protests. If we listened to polls and whether people got wound up or not, we'd still have slaves.

[EasyforDennis]

I think everyone (unless they have been living in a cave) has got the message now. By carrying on there is always the risk (As has been shown on this forum) that more and more people are going to get wound up? 

There is. But there always has been, for decades. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. In the vast majority of polls I've seen from decades past (I posted one earlier in the thread), the majority has always opposed civil rights movements and protests. If we listened to polls and whether people got wound up or not, we'd still have slaves.

Yes but the point has been made. Carry it on ad infinitum is just going to weaken the message.

[MachoMadness]

The Millwall supporters club have released an official statement, worthy of a read. The most significant bit for me is the quote in it from Les Ferdinand.

There is an argument that the gesture itself has run its course, none more eloquently put than our next opponents’ Director of Football, Les Ferdinand:

   “The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’ but little more than that.                The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.”

   “What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next ten years but see no actual progress made?”

   “Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game - actions will.”

Yes, I'm sure the Millwall fans (and the West Ham fans, and Colchester fans) were booing because they actually just wanted stronger action on anti-racism. It's absolute b*llocks.

I also think the kneeling had become a bit of an empty gesture, actually, and would like to see football take actual strong action on racism now. But I'm not going to boo it. Now kneeling is back in the spotlight again. Ironically, the actions of these fans means that kneeling isn't an empty gesture now, it's a show of defiance. Let's not pretend that the neanderthals booing just wanted more direct action as Ferdinand suggested, come on now. Last year, when they chanted "I'd rather be a paki than a scouse" at the Everton fans, were they calling for stronger action on racism then as well?

I think everyone (unless they have been living in a cave) has got the message now. By carrying on there is always the risk (As has been shown on this forum) that more and more people are going to get wound up? 

There is. But there always has been, for decades. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. In the vast majority of polls I've seen from decades past (I posted one earlier in the thread), the majority has always opposed civil rights movements and protests. If we listened to polls and whether people got wound up or not, we'd still have slaves.

Yes but the point has been made. Carry it on ad infinitum is just going to weaken the message.

Again though, that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. This week's events show that the message still needs to be heard. Now kneeling is no longer an empty gesture, it's a show of defiance against racism. If some people get genuinely annoyed by it, then so be it. Let them show everyone what they are. People made the same arguments against MLK and the Freedom Riders in the 60s, but these days they're looked back on as heroes. In 50 years we'll look back on BLM the same way, because that's what always happens.

[wilts rover]

The Millwall supporters club have released an official statement, worthy of a read. The most significant bit for me is the quote in it from Les Ferdinand.

There is an argument that the gesture itself has run its course, none more eloquently put than our next opponents’ Director of Football, Les Ferdinand:

   “The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’ but little more than that.                The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.”

   “What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next ten years but see no actual progress made?”

   “Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game - actions will.”

That seems to me a call to go further than a symbolic gesture like taking the knee - not dropping it for the sake of it.

This call for further action appears to be the stance the Colchester chairman is taking. It's time to do something:

"Those that take the knee want to highlight that all lives should be valued and should not be treated inhumanely or inferior to others just because of their race.

"It is undeniable that black and other ethnic minority people are still the victims of racism, and the black footballers and staff at Colchester United feel that they are in a position of privilege that has been fought for through the blood and sweat of their ancestors.

"A position that in 2020 the average black person is still not afforded.

"Those taking the knee, and supporting the taking of the knee, not only shows their willingness to support the drive to eradicate racial oppression but force it to be a talking point even when it's uncomfortable.

"Undeniably, taking the knee is a fundamental catalyst in pushing the conversation, and thus the necessary changes, forward."

Cowling said that, given his explanation, fans should "at the very least stay silent during future games" as players take a knee.

"Alternatively, they should just stay away from our club because anyone that still wants to boo now that I have explained the purpose and importance of the taking of the knee is not welcome at our club.

"I will be happy to refund anyone for the remaining value of their season permit if that is the reason they feel they can no longer attend our games."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55213641

[VivaRovers]

Many of us have e-mailed the club to let them know our feelings on numerous occasions. We have been informed by the club that it was continuing because of the wishes of 'one' player....

All the club had to do was issue a statement saying they would not be taking the knee and have all the players stood in the centre circle with a kick it out banner which we would have all applauded, but no they wouldn't do that...

In your anti-racist stance, surely you would recognise that white people telling people of colour how they should or shouldn't voice their opposition to racial discrimination is exactly the kind of thing that has led to the taking of the knee in the first place.

[i_ateallthepies]

It's people making a public show of their beliefs and opinions.

You either support that or you don't. Be consistent.

One is political, one is not.
When I go to work I do not feel the need to make an announcement of my own beliefs every morning to all and sundry, why should I have to be preached to on politics by footballers?
They are the ones causing the problem. If they are using their highly paid job role as a public platform to air their views then it is only right that they accept criticism from the people who pay their wages if they don't agree with them. As I said this could have been avoided by the players standing in the centre circle with a kick it out banner and everyone would have applauded that, but no the club and players are so stupid and ignorant that they would not do that and have gone out of their way to antagonise the supporters. They have started a war and it will get very messy. It is very much the club v the fans now. The club caused this and they need to make amends.

And what, AL, do you suggest the black footballers do to stop neanderthals in the crown shouting racial abuse at them whilst they're trying to do their jobs?  I'm sure they also feel they should expect to be allowed to get on with their jobs without being racially abused.

[River Don]

I don't think many will interpret the booing by Millwall fans as a principled stand against a subversive political organisation.

I think the wider world will see it as Millwall booing black players and rejecting the principle of equality.

Another reason not to like Millwall. They don't care. Except it impacts the football club, that might well find it difficult to recruit black players in future.

[wilts rover]

A very different view from an even more famous, and local, Millwall fan than AL:

Just seen the Millwall story. Makes your skin crawl. How come this clump of neanderthals get tickets?

https://twitter.com/prodnose/status/1335291417657286660

[DonnyBazR0ver]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

Is it too much to ask for players to be able to play the game they love without fear they are going to be racially abused?

As, said above, this is not about the political movement but the players standing together against inequality and racial abuse. They may have adopted the slogan and took the knee. At least they have done this without having some temporary token gesture thrust upon them or a t shirt to wear during the warm up.

For me, it's about the players who should decide whether to continue with this. Should they feel the need to continue this show of unity, we should be fine with it.

[DonnyOsmond]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

Is it too much to ask for players to be able to play the game they love without fear they are going to be racially abused?

As, said above, this is not about the political movement but the players standing together against inequality and racial abuse. They may have adopted the slogan and took the knee. At least they have done this without having some temporary token gesture thrust upon them or a t shirt to wear during the warm up.

For me, it's about the players who should decide whether to continue with this. Should they feel the need to continue this show of unity, we should be fine with it.

Well it's got QPR starting to take a knee again. If only they'd kept quiet it would have died down.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/qpr-to-take-the-knee-at-millwall-in-show-of-solidarity-after-booing

[rich1471]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

Is it too much to ask for players to be able to play the game they love without fear they are going to be racially abused?

As, said above, this is not about the political movement but the players standing together against inequality and racial abuse. They may have adopted the slogan and took the knee. At least they have done this without having some temporary token gesture thrust upon them or a t shirt to wear during the warm up.

For me, it's about the players who should decide whether to continue with this. Should they feel the need to continue this show of unity, we should be fine with it.

Well it's got QPR starting to take a knee again. If only they'd kept quiet it would have died down.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/qpr-to-take-the-knee-at-millwall-in-show-of-solidarity-after-booing

i posted this earlier , is this not just adding fuel to the fire as they are taking the knee because they are playing millwall

Queens Park Rangers boss Mark Warburton says his side will take the knee before Tuesday's league game at Millwall.

QPR had stopped the gesture, in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted".

However, Warburton says the club will "show solidarity" with the cause after some Millwall fans booed players taking a knee at The Den on Saturday.

"It is the right thing to do," he said. from the bbc

[scawsby steve]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

White boomers?

[Glyn_Wigley]

If they get booed again, the players should defy it and keep kneeling until it stops.

[rich1471]

Both teams have decided to to link arms
And not take the knee tomorrow night

[Not Now Kato]

Unbelievable that some people thing taking the knee is wrong.  No one is asking you to do it.  It doesn't get in the way of the game, just as the 'group hug' or the handshaking with players who've already been with each other in the changing room doesn't.  Or perhaps you think the players should just run out of the tunnel, line up and get on with the game?

NNK, I’m not sure if your above comment was aimed at me but if it was, why are you suggesting that I think that the players should not do the knee thing or just run out and get on with the game.
(Which is what has happened in at least three of our away games this season so far).

Not aimed at you Hound, aimed at anyone who can't accept that it is a show of solidarity and doesn't impact on them or the game whatsoever, and then complains about it as if it did.  No one is asking the fans to do it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Both teams have decided to to link arms
And not take the knee tomorrow night

So they are still making a statement about their support for the principle.

[normal rules]

Anti racism yes.
BLM no.

Anyone can justify taking knee as being nothing to do with some of the horrendous scenes in America and being part of the uk movement, but it’s a gesture that will always be associated with it for many. It’s a two sided story, and you can argue each till the cows come home. This thread is evidence of that.
No one wants racism in football, or anywhere for that matter.
So let’s promote that in a way that is not linked IN ANY WAY with violence, or politics or extremism. Taking the knee now has, for many, a negative stigma attached to it. That won’t change. Which is a damn shame given it’s history.

Well done Millwall FC. I for one, hope other clubs take note.

And a comment I made in an earlier post seems to either been passed over or ignored, but Sasha Johnson, from Oxford, one of the lead figures of the UK BLM movement, tweeted only 2days ago that “ the white man will no longer be their equal but their slaves. No justice no peace. “
this rhetoric is no different to that being spouted by those over the pond? This is what people don’t want to hear, no matter what your skin colour is. This is what harms the BLM movement.
You won’t see this in the news of course.

[Axholme Lion]

A very different view from an even more famous, and local, Millwall fan than AL:

Just seen the Millwall story. Makes your skin crawl. How come this clump of neanderthals get tickets?

https://twitter.com/prodnose/status/1335291417657286660

Danny Baker is just trying to brown nose his way back into work after calling Harry And Meghan's baby a monkey, so he's in no position to take the moral high ground I would say.

[Axholme Lion]

At last common sense comes to the fore.
The players will stand arm in arm with kick it out on their shirts, but no kneeling from Wall.
This is all we asked for and would support this gesture.
An apology from the club to the supporters would be nice but it won't happen.
There will be no booing much to the disappointment of the likes of Lineker, the BBC and SKY.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR.

A couple of points.

To the best of my knowledge, Sasha Johnson tweeted that several months ago and was (100% correctly) banned from Twitter for it.

What she said was disgusting and unacceptable. But what you are doing here is conflating a principle (public demonstration of rejection of racism) with the rantings of one extremist. That in itself is a political choice. Personally, I find it easy to support one while utterly condemning the other, because I don't draw a link between them.

By the same token, I wouldn't condemn every Millwall fan as being a knuckle-dragging throwback to more benighted times, just because a few dozen of them rampaged into a family section of the West Stand at the Keeomoat a few years back.

[Filo]

As a side issue, should the Black Power salute be used in conjunction with BLM, as some players seem to be doing?

[normal rules]

NR.

A couple of points.

To the best of my knowledge, Sasha Johnson tweeted that several months ago and was (100% correctly) banned from Twitter for it.

What she said was disgusting and unacceptable. But what you are doing here is conflating a principle (public demonstration of rejection of racism) with the rantings of one extremist. That in itself is a political choice. Personally, I find it easy to support one while utterly condemning the other, because I don't draw a link between them.

By the same token, I wouldn't condemn every Millwall fan as being a knuckle-dragging throwback to more benighted times, just because a few dozen of them rampaged into a family section of the West Stand at the Keeomoat a few years back.

I get your point BST. I’m sure we could discuss this ad infinitum. I don’t propose to.
It’s nice that this has been discussed on here without it spiralling into a slagging match.
It’s a shame we cannot do this over a beer at the km. perhaps one day......

[Axholme Lion]

Both teams have decided to to link arms
And not take the knee tomorrow night

So they are still making a statement about their support for the principle.

Which is fine by me as it clearly distances from the politics of BLM.
Everyone I know is more than happy with this outcome.

[Axholme Lion]

The slogan isn't political. The far-right have tried to tie it into politics so it's easier to undermine the movement. It's the same thing they've done for decades. Why should the black civil rights movement change their approach to accommodate fragile white boomers who are already looking for any reason to ignore BLM anyway? Nobody stops talking about green eco-friendly stuff just because we have a Green party. Should Rosa Parks have decided to sit a few seats further back so it didn't upset people like you?

Is it too much to ask to be able to go to the match, meet your mates, watch the game and let off a bit of steam without being preached at? I am absolutely sick to death of it everywhere you go, ruining the enjoyment of what little life we are allowed to have.
The club have chucked us under the bus to save themselves and the players.

But's it you that is doing the preaching - telling people what they can do and what symbolism can and cannot be adopted by Millwall.

The 'fans' had the opportunity to ignore it if they didn't like it. They chose not to. This is the consequence of those actions.

It's no-one elses fault other than the people who carried it out.

The club should do as the supporters wish them to. Let's see how long they would last without us? It's not like some big PL team with a waiting list for season tickets and they know it.

[DonnyOsmond]

Ahh white people telling black people what is acceptable from them. Sounds about right.

The snowflakes got what they wanted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR.

A couple of points.

To the best of my knowledge, Sasha Johnson tweeted that several months ago and was (100% correctly) banned from Twitter for it.

What she said was disgusting and unacceptable. But what you are doing here is conflating a principle (public demonstration of rejection of racism) with the rantings of one extremist. That in itself is a political choice. Personally, I find it easy to support one while utterly condemning the other, because I don't draw a link between them.

By the same token, I wouldn't condemn every Millwall fan as being a knuckle-dragging throwback to more benighted times, just because a few dozen of them rampaged into a family section of the West Stand at the Keeomoat a few years back.

I get your point BST. I’m sure we could discuss this ad infinitum. I don’t propose to.
It’s nice that this has been discussed on here without it spiralling into a slagging match.
It’s a shame we cannot do this over a beer at the km. perhaps one day......

Agreed.