Brexit Benefits Log

[belton rover]

But it is still a ‘you left, so tough titties’ attitude, which is their prerogative of course. But surely, if they had their members’ best interests at heart, they would still want to give them all the opportunity to eat affordable oysters.
Two things that haven’t changed in all this are the oysters and the Europeans who want to eat them.

They will get affordable oysters, just not from the UK because our prices go up due to OUR decision, not theirs.

Neither are they copping an attitude. They are treating us exactly the same as any other non-EU country. That's what we wanted after all, apparently we knew what we were voting for. The EU are looking after their own best interests - especially those of their own oyster producers and through them ultimately the EU consumers.

The only 'attitude' on display is from those cakeists who can't believe the UK isn't somehow being treated as special case.

Where will they get them from at lower prices?

[Glyn_Wigley]

But it is still a ‘you left, so tough titties’ attitude, which is their prerogative of course. But surely, if they had their members’ best interests at heart, they would still want to give them all the opportunity to eat affordable oysters.
Two things that haven’t changed in all this are the oysters and the Europeans who want to eat them.

They will get affordable oysters, just not from the UK because our prices go up due to OUR decision, not theirs.

Neither are they copping an attitude. They are treating us exactly the same as any other non-EU country. That's what we wanted after all, apparently we knew what we were voting for. The EU are looking after their own best interests - especially those of their own oyster producers and through them ultimately the EU consumers.

The only 'attitude' on display is from those cakeists who can't believe the UK isn't somehow being treated as special case.

Where will they get them from at lower prices?

From other suppliers within the Single Market, who will be able to supply at a lower cost than the EU. At least four EU countries are oyster producers and they'll be more than happy to take up the slack, probably using the very same purification plants that you're so worried won't have anything to do any more. Which is also how the EU is looking after it's own. You seem to forget that that used to include us until we decided to stick two fingers up to them.

[belton rover]

So there was an excess of oysters in the EU before we left?
Makes you wonder why they were so expensive.

[Not Now Kato]

I'd question the elasticity of oysters though to be fair....

I'd question the efficiency of Oysters myself. I bought my wife six oysters at a wonderful seafood restaurant, and only five of them worked later that evening!

[belton rover]

I can’t find anywhere that tells me exactly where the oysters are coming from to replace the British ones. I’m sure it must be out there.
 Can you pop a link up?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

Once again. It is because we are not in the Single Market. There is no me hanism for the EU to accept non Class A water seafood from ANY third country.

And yes, this does result in a minor inconvenience to European consumers of oysters. But there has been a consistent line from the EU since the vote. The resilience of the SM is of FAR more importance to the countries of the EU than any minor inconveniences. So they will not allow third countries to pick and choose preferential bits of the SM to buy into. It is all or nothing. We chose nothing. OUR choice. The consequences are consequences of our making, not the EUs.

It is fascinating that some of us have been making this case now for 5 years. We used to get the response that it was all a negotiating stance and the EU would give us special terms when push came to shove. Now the line is that the EU is imposing unfair and punitive penalties on us. Or that they are being unfair in not giving us a preferential deal. Does no-one on the Brexit-supporting side ever stop and think that they have called this wrong every step of the way?

Thanks, Billy, genuinely. Though I think ‘minor inconvenience’ is playing it down rather a lot. You didn’t think the British guy you shared a link to that started this section of debate was going through a minor inconvenience, did you?

Also, it’s not Britain who would be picking and choosing. Britain has something the people of Europe want. The EU are choosing not to buy, to the detriment of those in Europe who would like to continue working in the purifying plants.

Belton.

I fully agree that the man whose livelihood is on the line is undergoing more than a little inconvenience. But his situation is not the responsibility or really, the concern of the EU. The EU are not going to compromise the integrity of the SM (which would affect countless more EU jobs) to help out someone whose Govt chose to massively inconvenience.

But I wasn't referring to him when I said "minor inconvenience". I was referring to the inconvenience of the consumers of oysters in the EU who will have a tad less choice and possibly a bit less supply. That is a very minor inconvenience compared to the earthquake that would rip through the SM if the EU started letting third countries pick and choose which bits of the SM they wanted to be a part of.

Because, if you let third countries choose to do that, why should EU countries follow ALL the rules of the SM? But if all EU countries don't follow all the rules of the SM, there is no SM.

And THAT is the insoluble fact that I and others have been banging on about into the void for years. There will be no preferential access for Britain to bits of the SM. Because the consequences for the EU of allowing that are far worse than the inconveniences of not allowing it.

It would be good if we as a country would now grow up and deal with that fact, instead of blubbing that the EU isn't playing fair.

[belton rover]

Belton.

Once again. It is because we are not in the Single Market. There is no me hanism for the EU to accept non Class A water seafood from ANY third country.

And yes, this does result in a minor inconvenience to European consumers of oysters. But there has been a consistent line from the EU since the vote. The resilience of the SM is of FAR more importance to the countries of the EU than any minor inconveniences. So they will not allow third countries to pick and choose preferential bits of the SM to buy into. It is all or nothing. We chose nothing. OUR choice. The consequences are consequences of our making, not the EUs.

It is fascinating that some of us have been making this case now for 5 years. We used to get the response that it was all a negotiating stance and the EU would give us special terms when push came to shove. Now the line is that the EU is imposing unfair and punitive penalties on us. Or that they are being unfair in not giving us a preferential deal. Does no-one on the Brexit-supporting side ever stop and think that they have called this wrong every step of the way?

Thanks, Billy, genuinely. Though I think ‘minor inconvenience’ is playing it down rather a lot. You didn’t think the British guy you shared a link to that started this section of debate was going through a minor inconvenience, did you?

Also, it’s not Britain who would be picking and choosing. Britain has something the people of Europe want. The EU are choosing not to buy, to the detriment of those in Europe who would like to continue working in the purifying plants.

Belton.

I fully agree that the man whose livelihood is on the line is undergoing more than a little inconvenience. But his situation is not the responsibility or really, the concern of the EU. The EU are not going to compromise the integrity of the SM (which would affect countless more EU jobs) to help out someone whose Govt chose to massively inconvenience.

But I wasn't referring to him when I said "minor inconvenience". I was referring to the inconvenience of the consumers of oysters in the EU who will have a tad less choice and possibly a bit less supply. That is a very minor inconvenience compared to the earthquake that would rip through the SM if the EU started letting third countries pick and choose which bits of the SM they wanted to be a part of.

Because, if you let third countries choose to do that, why should EU countries follow ALL the rules of the SM? But if all EU countries don't follow all the rules of the SM, there is no SM.

And THAT is the insoluble fact that I and others have been banging on about into the void for years. There will be no preferential access for Britain to bits of the SM. Because the consequences for the EU of allowing that are far worse than the inconveniences of not allowing it.

It would be good if we as a country would now grow up and deal with that fact, instead of blubbing that the EU isn't playing fair.

I get most of that, but:

Firstly, the folk wanting to quaff cheap oysters are quite clearly suffering a minor inconvenience, but what about those (I have no idea if this would be six or six thousand) who would could lose their livelihoods  as oyster purifiers.

Secondly, it’s not the EU letting non members do what they like, its the EU choosing and controlling which non members to trade with.

[bobjimwilly]

another example that should make you stop and think - why did we leave again?

[belton rover]

another example that should make you stop and think - why did we leave again?

Not at all Bob. I’m just not accepting that it has to be doom and gloom. I often ask that question, but then I feel I have to try to at least focus on the positives as much as I possibly can, and our future.
Leaving the EU doesn’t and shouldn’t mean we can’t trade with the EU.

I don’t regret voting to leave, but I may well have voted differently had the remain campaign done their jobs properly.

I do, however, wish we had never been given the ‘opportunity’ to vote, given the shambles that came during and after campaigns.

I also don’t consider myself a Brexiteer.

Just someone who voted leave after literally hovering my pencil over both boxes, and now has a responsibility to embrace the decision, as should everyone - leave or remain.

[SydneyRover]

In other words you were not across the facts when you put you X down.

[Bentley Bullet]

Neither was I, and I voted to remain.

[drfchound]

I dont think anyone was aware of all the potential problems before casting their vote.

[Bentley Bullet]

The problems were made worse by Remoaners refusing to accept the result.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

EVERY sovereign market chooses who to trade with!

The salient point here is that the EU hasn't changed its policies to hit us, which is what Tory ministers and Tory papers have been saying.

Third or fourth time I've repeated this now so apologies if I'm sounding like a broken record, but the following point is key and doesn't seem to be getting through.

The EU's policy on fish imports is that  fish caught in Class B waters cannot be imported into the EU from a third country for purification in the EU. That, apparently, has been the policy for years. 8 weeks ago, we were not a third country. We chose to become a third country. So the problems this causes for our fishing industry is entirely and solely a result of our choice of policy.

You seem to still be complaining that the EU won't bend the rules to help us out. But that's missing THE massive point. The EU cannot and will not allow third countries to have selected benefits of SM membership. Full stop. That will not happen because it would mean the destruction of the SM.

And, crucially, anyone who was prepared to look at the issues dispassionately knew this years ago. So the Govt putting on a surprised face now and shouting "unfair" means they are either stupid, or deliberately deceiving people. And I don't think they are stupid.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS .
Of course leaving the EU doesn't mean we cannot trade with the EU. Literally no-one is saying that.

What it DOES mean is that we cannot trade with them as easily as we could 8 weeks ago. Which was the whole point of the Twitter thread I posted about oysters.

[drfchound]

I dont think anyone was aware of all the potential problems before casting their vote.

I voted to remain too BB.
Thinking back i am sure i didnt hear from either side that our fish wouldnt be allowed into EU countries to be purified if we left though.
What a sneaky trick that was eh.

[Bentley Bullet]

Neither did I, but I was glad in a way because what with all the empty food shelves in the shops it was all we could rely on as our main diet.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound. No. But I assume you did hear people on the Remain side saying that leaving the SM would make trade much harder? And people on the Leave side saying that was Project Fear, and "Literally no-one is saying we will leave the SM" and "It would be madness to leave the SM"?

BB. Reight comedian aren't you? I bet the people in the fishing industry seeing their businesses on the rocks are rolling in the aisles.

And I assume you remember that "empty shelves" comment was about what would happen in the event of us crashing out with No Deal? You do remember?

[belton rover]

Belton.

EVERY sovereign market chooses who to trade with!

The salient point here is that the EU hasn't changed its policies to hit us, which is what Tory ministers and Tory papers have been saying.

Third or fourth time I've repeated this now so apologies if I'm sounding like a broken record, but the following point is key and doesn't seem to be getting through.

The EU's policy on fish imports is that  fish caught in Class B waters cannot be imported into the EU from a third country for purification in the EU. That, apparently, has been the policy for years. 8 weeks ago, we were not a third country. We chose to become a third country. So the problems this causes for our fishing industry is entirely and solely a result of our choice of policy.

You seem to still be complaining that the EU won't bend the rules to help us out. But that's missing THE massive point. The EU cannot and will not allow third countries to have selected benefits of SM membership. Full stop. That will not happen because it would mean the destruction of the SM.

And, crucially, anyone who was prepared to look at the issues dispassionately knew this years ago. So the Govt putting on a surprised face now and shouting "unfair" means they are either stupid, or deliberately deceiving people. And I don't think they are stupid.

You misunderstand my point. I’m not complaining that they won’t bend the rules for us. I’m expressing my view that choosing not to trade with us BECAUSE we left is not in the best interests of their members who will suffer because of it. They have every right to make things as difficult as they can, but I wouldn’t have thought even the EU would do that at all costs.

I also think that in time, they will welcome such trade again if it benefits them.

[belton rover]

In other words you were not across the facts when you put you X down.

I don’t think anyone was

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, so I  suspect your claim of being right on something that you think would have happened, but didn't happen because the situation never arose, still goes down in Viking history as being absolutely correct!

Just like when the schools reopen on March 8th, your script will already be written about how many thousands of lives Boris could have saved by delaying the return by three weeks.

Let's see if I'm reight.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

One last time. They are NOT " choosing not to trade with us because we left."

What is happening is the inevitable consequence of us leaving. The EU didn't sit down and say "Right, the British have left. Do we choose whether to trade with them or not?" They simply applied the rules that are applied to ALL third countries.

The ONLY way they could have done anything different is literally to bend the rules for us. Which you say you have no problem with them not doing. So I honestly don't get the point you are making.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.
You ignore predictions about the future that do come to pass. When predictions about the future become irrelevant because of changes of circumstances, you make lame wisecracks about them.

I do wonder what you get out of this, but I hope it is worth it. 

[SydneyRover]

Belton.

EVERY sovereign market chooses who to trade with!

The salient point here is that the EU hasn't changed its policies to hit us, which is what Tory ministers and Tory papers have been saying.

Third or fourth time I've repeated this now so apologies if I'm sounding like a broken record, but the following point is key and doesn't seem to be getting through.

The EU's policy on fish imports is that  fish caught in Class B waters cannot be imported into the EU from a third country for purification in the EU. That, apparently, has been the policy for years. 8 weeks ago, we were not a third country. We chose to become a third country. So the problems this causes for our fishing industry is entirely and solely a result of our choice of policy.

You seem to still be complaining that the EU won't bend the rules to help us out. But that's missing THE massive point. The EU cannot and will not allow third countries to have selected benefits of SM membership. Full stop. That will not happen because it would mean the destruction of the SM.

And, crucially, anyone who was prepared to look at the issues dispassionately knew this years ago. So the Govt putting on a surprised face now and shouting "unfair" means they are either stupid, or deliberately deceiving people. And I don't think they are stupid.

You misunderstand my point. I’m not complaining that they won’t bend the rules for us. I’m expressing my view that choosing not to trade with us BECAUSE we left is not in the best interests of their members who will suffer because of it. They have every right to make things as difficult as they can, but I wouldn’t have thought even the EU would do that at all costs.

I also think that in time, they will welcome such trade again if it benefits them.

Have you any proof that the EU is not trading with us because we left? afaik they are not making things difficult they are looking after there own interests, which is exactly what brexiteers wanted to do, no? the rules applied are for all non-members unless there agreements with the EU varying that position, these rules were put into place by and with the support of the UK.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST.
I'd agree with you if that were true, but it's bullshit.

[drfchound]

Belton.

EVERY sovereign market chooses who to trade with!

The salient point here is that the EU hasn't changed its policies to hit us, which is what Tory ministers and Tory papers have been saying.

Third or fourth time I've repeated this now so apologies if I'm sounding like a broken record, but the following point is key and doesn't seem to be getting through.

The EU's policy on fish imports is that  fish caught in Class B waters cannot be imported into the EU from a third country for purification in the EU. That, apparently, has been the policy for years. 8 weeks ago, we were not a third country. We chose to become a third country. So the problems this causes for our fishing industry is entirely and solely a result of our choice of policy.

You seem to still be complaining that the EU won't bend the rules to help us out. But that's missing THE massive point. The EU cannot and will not allow third countries to have selected benefits of SM membership. Full stop. That will not happen because it would mean the destruction of the SM.

And, crucially, anyone who was prepared to look at the issues dispassionately knew this years ago. So the Govt putting on a surprised face now and shouting "unfair" means they are either stupid, or deliberately deceiving people. And I don't think they are stupid.

You misunderstand my point. I’m not complaining that they won’t bend the rules for us. I’m expressing my view that choosing not to trade with us BECAUSE we left is not in the best interests of their members who will suffer because of it. They have every right to make things as difficult as they can, but I wouldn’t have thought even the EU would do that at all costs.

I also think that in time, they will welcome such trade again if it benefits them.

Have you any proof that the EU is not trading with us because we left? afaik they are not making things difficult they are looking after there own interests, which is exactly what brexiteers wanted to do, no? the rules applied are for all non-members unless there agreements with the EU varying that position, these rules were put into place by and with the support of the UK.

We? Us?

[belton rover]

Belton.

One last time. They are NOT " choosing not to trade with us because we left."

What is happening is the inevitable consequence of us leaving. The EU didn't sit down and say "Right, the British have left. Do we choose whether to trade with them or not?" They simply applied the rules that are applied to ALL third countries.

The ONLY way they could have done anything different is literally to bend the rules for us. Which you say you have no problem with them not doing. So I honestly don't get the point you are making.

Thanks Billy, I’ve genuinely learned something new tonight.
But
Keeping my positive head on - an opportunity to invest in more purifying plants and creating more jobs.
Bring it on.

[SydneyRover]

I'm pretty sure I said before that if you don't want to be included in the conversation to then stay out. That's fairly plain even for you hound I would have thought. You don't add much to the conversations except a continual sniping and you even take it over to the football threads which is remarkably petty. Then you complain that people are having a go at you, I wonder why? 

[Not Now Kato]

Belton.

EVERY sovereign market chooses who to trade with!

The salient point here is that the EU hasn't changed its policies to hit us, which is what Tory ministers and Tory papers have been saying.

Third or fourth time I've repeated this now so apologies if I'm sounding like a broken record, but the following point is key and doesn't seem to be getting through.

The EU's policy on fish imports is that  fish caught in Class B waters cannot be imported into the EU from a third country for purification in the EU. That, apparently, has been the policy for years. 8 weeks ago, we were not a third country. We chose to become a third country. So the problems this causes for our fishing industry is entirely and solely a result of our choice of policy.

You seem to still be complaining that the EU won't bend the rules to help us out. But that's missing THE massive point. The EU cannot and will not allow third countries to have selected benefits of SM membership. Full stop. That will not happen because it would mean the destruction of the SM.

And, crucially, anyone who was prepared to look at the issues dispassionately knew this years ago. So the Govt putting on a surprised face now and shouting "unfair" means they are either stupid, or deliberately deceiving people. And I don't think they are stupid.

You misunderstand my point. I’m not complaining that they won’t bend the rules for us. I’m expressing my view that choosing not to trade with us BECAUSE we left is not in the best interests of their members who will suffer because of it. They have every right to make things as difficult as they can, but I wouldn’t have thought even the EU would do that at all costs.

I also think that in time, they will welcome such trade again if it benefits them.

You don't seem to get it do you? The EU are NOT making things difficult for us, WE have made it difficult for US!  You voted leave, own it, stop blaming the EU, deliver the lies you believed in!

[drfchound]

I'm pretty sure I said before that if you don't want to be included in the conversation to then stay out. That's fairly plain even for you hound I would have thought. You don't add much to the conversations except a continual sniping and you even take it over to the football threads which is remarkably petty. Then you complain that people are having a go at you, I wonder why? 

Yeah coz you never jump into other people’s conversations on here do you, like you did this morning between Tommy C and BST.
I was just curious about why you say we and us when you are half a world away and people are talking issues between the UK and the EU.