The Climate Crisis

[River Don]

Now it looks like Carrie, i mean Boris, is wanting to ban all gas boilers by 2035! Should be surge in sales in 2034.

This is putting the cart before the horse.

Heat pumps aren't effective unless the property is very well insulated. Putting heat pumps in the UKs cold houses instead of gas boilers won't be very effective.

Instead of subsidising heat pumps and banning gas boilers, the effort should be going into insulation.

And they need to tighten up standards in house building now. We're still building properties with gas boilers today, when they could be laying ground heat source pipes and insulating to German standards.

[silent majority]

Now it looks like Carrie, i mean Boris, is wanting to ban all gas boilers by 2035! Should be surge in sales in 2034.

This is putting the cart before the horse.

Heat pumps aren't effective unless the property is very well insulated. Putting heat pumps in the UKs cold houses instead of gas boilers won't be very effective.

Instead of subsidising heat pumps and banning gas boilers, the effort should be going into insulation.

And they need to tighten up standards in house building now. We're still building properties with gas boilers today, when they could be laying ground heat source pipes and insulating to German standards.

It's not quite the case though.

The industry is committed to alternatives to gas boilers, and the next step will be a gas/hydrogen mixture followed by a full conversion to hydrogen.

Heat pumps are not the main choice as an alternative either. Heat pumps will play a part but we are seeing multiple sources and choices, mostly around heat pumps, solar, and a strong reliance on central boiler plant or district energy schemes with single family homes getting their hot water for heating and DHW through Heat Interface Units (HIU's).

[River Don]

Now it looks like Carrie, i mean Boris, is wanting to ban all gas boilers by 2035! Should be surge in sales in 2034.

This is putting the cart before the horse.

Heat pumps aren't effective unless the property is very well insulated. Putting heat pumps in the UKs cold houses instead of gas boilers won't be very effective.

Instead of subsidising heat pumps and banning gas boilers, the effort should be going into insulation.

And they need to tighten up standards in house building now. We're still building properties with gas boilers today, when they could be laying ground heat source pipes and insulating to German standards.

It's not quite the case though.

The industry is committed to alternatives to gas boilers, and the next step will be a gas/hydrogen mixture followed by a full conversion to hydrogen.

Heat pumps are not the main choice as an alternative either. Heat pumps will play a part but we are seeing multiple sources and choices, mostly around heat pumps, solar, and a strong reliance on central boiler plant or district energy schemes with single family homes getting their hot water for heating and DHW through Heat Interface Units (HIU's).

I accept all of that SM but Johnson is promising a £5,000 grant to replace a gas boiler with a heat pump.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/14/households-pushed-scrap-gas-boilers-5000-grant/

Whatever heating solution we go for, improving home insulation has to be the best start. For me that's where the investment should be going.

Edit. On second reading that DT article is a bit misleading, it focuses on heat pumps. It might include other 'green' options.

[normal rules]

The grant is only good for about 67000 units.  Which won’t go very far will it ?

On the subject of external heat pumps. A local plumber who has done a course to install these say that they are prone to freezing up if the weather drops below zero. And then they fail, big time. So they have to be built inside something frost proof.

[SydneyRover]

Now it looks like Carrie, i mean Boris, is wanting to ban all gas boilers by 2035! Should be surge in sales in 2034.

This is putting the cart before the horse.

Heat pumps aren't effective unless the property is very well insulated. Putting heat pumps in the UKs cold houses instead of gas boilers won't be very effective.

Instead of subsidising heat pumps and banning gas boilers, the effort should be going into insulation.

And they need to tighten up standards in house building now. We're still building properties with gas boilers today, when they could be laying ground heat source pipes and insulating to German standards.

It's not quite the case though.

The industry is committed to alternatives to gas boilers, and the next step will be a gas/hydrogen mixture followed by a full conversion to hydrogen.

Heat pumps are not the main choice as an alternative either. Heat pumps will play a part but we are seeing multiple sources and choices, mostly around heat pumps, solar, and a strong reliance on central boiler plant or district energy schemes with single family homes getting their hot water for heating and DHW through Heat Interface Units (HIU's).

I accept all of that SM but Johnson is promising a £5,000 grant to replace a gas boiler with a heat pump.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/14/households-pushed-scrap-gas-boilers-5000-grant/

Whatever heating solution we go for, improving home insulation has to be the best start. For me that's where the investment should be going.

Edit. On second reading that DT article is a bit misleading, it focuses on heat pumps. It might include other 'green' options.

Got to agree with insulating, a bit like decorating the house with a leaky roof.

[albie]

It is not possible to use hydrogen as a replacement for gas with the current infrastructure.
All pipework would need to be replaced.

A low percentage blend is possible, but to meet climate goals it would need to be green hydrogen from renewable sources. The development of green hydrogen production will happen, but not at scale until some years hence.

Hydrogen is unsuited to domestic heating and vehicles, where electrification offers greater payload. For home heating electric via heat pumps gives 400% efficiency, so where it is viable it is the best option.

For new build, ground source where possible, air source if not, should be the default.

Insulation is a fundamental, irrespective of the type of heat provided.
Very disappointing strategy in total, far from what is needed.

[KeithMyath]

It’s been some 15 years ago, but I worked for a company upgrading boilers in power stations to take biomass. The ones dotted around Doncaster were all supposed to run on coal, but  after the demise of the coal industry and cheap Poor quality coal being used it caused havoc with efficiency of power station boilers. All of them were retrofitted to burn oil and gas, in the 90’s as well as coal. We then added biomass to the mix, we trialed at eggborough but the project never got off the ground. Drax did years later. What I dont understand is why we are not just going back to oil in power stations, not great for the climate but surely would atleast make electricity production.more affordable than relying on gas while the prices are so high. What a shame someone couldn’t come up with a carbon capture technology for us to use the coal beneath our feet with little of the down sides. Oh that’s right we did, and South Korea we’re willing to fund it in our own town, but the torys we’re too busy courting the Chinese to build a nuclear power station. Still boils my blood, 8-9 years on

[BillyStubbsTears]

How much does Robert Peston get paid?

To write shite like this?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1450448339179352066

Ooh! Ooh! How awful it could be if we found a cure for cancer and all the taxes that we get from companies that make radiotherapy equipment would be lost!

How did we survive the end of WWII when we lost all the taxes from people who had been making Spitfires for the past 6 years?

[drfchound]

I suppose all the Spitfire builders just built different planes.

[SydneyRover]

It is not possible to use hydrogen as a replacement for gas with the current infrastructure.
All pipework would need to be replaced.

A low percentage blend is possible, but to meet climate goals it would need to be green hydrogen from renewable sources. The development of green hydrogen production will happen, but not at scale until some years hence.

Hydrogen is unsuited to domestic heating and vehicles, where electrification offers greater payload. For home heating electric via heat pumps gives 400% efficiency, so where it is viable it is the best option.

For new build, ground source where possible, air source if not, should be the default.

Insulation is a fundamental, irrespective of the type of heat provided.
Very disappointing strategy in total, far from what is needed.

These are the answers to most of the problems on a domestic level, combined with solar panels and batteries where possible.

Yes it will cost more but never more than what climate change is causing via flood and storm damage and much worse is to come.

My brother live in a typical central terrace house built maybe around 1910 he put insulation in between the ceiling beams and then run another lot over the top the other way. Voila! warm house.

[silent majority]

It is not possible to use hydrogen as a replacement for gas with the current infrastructure.
All pipework would need to be replaced.

A low percentage blend is possible, but to meet climate goals it would need to be green hydrogen from renewable sources. The development of green hydrogen production will happen, but not at scale until some years hence.

Hydrogen is unsuited to domestic heating and vehicles, where electrification offers greater payload. For home heating electric via heat pumps gives 400% efficiency, so where it is viable it is the best option.

For new build, ground source where possible, air source if not, should be the default.

Insulation is a fundamental, irrespective of the type of heat provided.
Very disappointing strategy in total, far from what is needed.

Albie, I'm not sure where you're getting this from but it's not correct, or I should say the context isn't correct.

For instance, you quote the efficiency of heat pumps but fail to note that the problems associated with that technology will cause the implementation of it to fail. The sheer cost alone will be a sizeable burden despite the grants that are available. The grant package is miles away from anything remotely workable.

And I say all of that from a position of holding a senior position in the largest manufacturer of climate solutions globally, and that I sit on certain technical committee's that advise various governments around the world with what is possible.

Electricity is the future, there's no doubt about that, and we are currently converting ships in various countries to run on electricity, we're also converting construction plant machinery to run on hydrogen. There are lots of success stories around, and we are leading the filed with many of these technologies, so much so that our own factories will be carbon neutral within the next few years.

[Axholme Lion]

What's the point in fifty years time we'll all be brown bread in any case. Why make ourselves miserable now when we won't be here in the future?

[normal rules]

What's the point in fifty years time we'll all be brown bread in any case. Why make ourselves miserable now when we won't be here in the future?

If not dead then underwater.
Future predicted maps of the uk show it to be an archipelago, with most major towns and cities underwater.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What's the point in fifty years time we'll all be brown bread in any case. Why make ourselves miserable now when we won't be here in the future?

Churchill 1940 in AL's Universe.

"I have nothing to offer but...ah f**k it. We'll all be dead in 50 years anyway. Let's make peace and have fun."

[Axholme Lion]

What's the point in fifty years time we'll all be brown bread in any case. Why make ourselves miserable now when we won't be here in the future?

Churchill 1940 in AL's Universe.

"I have nothing to offer but...ah f**k it. We'll all be dead in 50 years anyway. Let's make peace and have fun."

Mine's a pint. Cheers.

[normal rules]

It is not possible to use hydrogen as a replacement for gas with the current infrastructure.
All pipework would need to be replaced.

A low percentage blend is possible, but to meet climate goals it would need to be green hydrogen from renewable sources. The development of green hydrogen production will happen, but not at scale until some years hence.

Hydrogen is unsuited to domestic heating and vehicles, where electrification offers greater payload. For home heating electric via heat pumps gives 400% efficiency, so where it is viable it is the best option.

For new build, ground source where possible, air source if not, should be the default.

Insulation is a fundamental, irrespective of the type of heat provided.
Very disappointing strategy in total, far from what is needed.

Albie, I'm not sure where you're getting this from but it's not correct, or I should say the context isn't correct.

For instance, you quote the efficiency of heat pumps but fail to note that the problems associated with that technology will cause the implementation of it to fail. The sheer cost alone will be a sizeable burden despite the grants that are available. The grant package is miles away from anything remotely workable.

And I say all of that from a position of holding a senior position in the largest manufacturer of climate solutions globally, and that I sit on certain technical committee's that advise various governments around the world with what is possible.

Electricity is the future, there's no doubt about that, and we are currently converting ships in various countries to run on electricity, we're also converting construction plant machinery to run on hydrogen. There are lots of success stories around, and we are leading the filed with many of these technologies, so much so that our own factories will be carbon neutral within the next few years.

Elon Musk has the whole electricity thing nailed on.
The whole of the USA can be powered by a solar farm that is 100 miles square using a battery the size of 1 mile square. So a very small corner of Ohio.
China could do the same he claims. And they have the space to do it too.
The sun is the largest power source we have . It’s infinitesimal the amount of power it gives off. Yet we piss around with hydro, wind and fossil fuels.
Electricity is the future. And we need to make use of the suns ability to create it a lot more.

[ravenrover]

Trouble is we don't tend to get  as much in UK, now if rain and cloud could be harnessed .........

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

What's the point in fifty years time we'll all be brown bread in any case. Why make ourselves miserable now when we won't be here in the future?

Speak for yourself, I hope not to be!

[albie]

SM,

Not really sure of the point you are trying to make....what is not correct?

I agree the grant package is inadequate, and I made a point of saying heat pumps where viable, yet you say I "fail to note that the problems associated with that technology will cause the implementation of it to fail"....what do you mean?

Inappropriate use of hydrogen is being promoted by legacy fossil fuel interests to give life support to their dying industry.

It is not simply a matter of replacing gas supplies with hydrogen on a like for like basis. The economics of the transition is dynamic, not static.

You said to RD that hydrogen would be used for home heating;
"The industry is committed to alternatives to gas boilers, and the next step will be a gas/hydrogen mixture followed by a full conversion to hydrogen."

This is a very poor use of the (scarce) resource.
https://twitter.com/janrosenow/status/1448955118490116104/photo/1

Hydrogen has smaller molecules than natural gas, so the distribution network would need a full retrofit. The energy needed to pump H2 around the gas grid would be three times higher than for natural gas.

Hydrogen has a role to play in high carbon and energy demand sectors, like steel, cement, shipping etc.

Decarbonising the hydrogen supply chain has not yet been done.
Using hydrogen produced by electrolysis would raise overall power demand, not the objective of policy.

There are potential savings to overall system costs from the use of networked heat pumps and storage. Faster decarbonisation of electricity could reduce wholesale costs by around 15% in 2030.
 
The Heat and Buildings strategy kicks the can down the road on hydrogen, promising a decision after the next election on whether to take things forward.

There is a reason for that!

[Axholme Lion]

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/10/20/how-environmentalism-turned-politics-on-its-head/

Hits the nail on the head. Live in a cave and die by 30. Logans Run?

[ravenrover]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

[Axholme Lion]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

[Axholme Lion]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

It'll need to rise a bit to get over the bankings along the Trent side.

[normal rules]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

It'll need to rise a bit to get over the bankings along the Trent side.

If all the ice on earth melts then sea level will rise 68 metres.

[Axholme Lion]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

It'll need to rise a bit to get over the bankings along the Trent side.

If all the ice on earth melts then sea level will rise 68 metres.

Not in my lifetime.

[KeithMyath]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

It'll need to rise a bit to get over the bankings along the Trent side.

If all the ice on earth melts then sea level will rise 68 metres.

Not in my lifetime.

And in those 4 words lies the problem for future generations.

[normal rules]

One of the worst of human traits. Selfishness.

There are some very apt and poignant quotes from the movies classic The day the earth stood still.

“Only when we are on the edge of existence, looking into the abyss, will we change.”

Of course by then, it will be too late.
The human race made its decision to consume its own habitat hundreds of years ago. They just did not realise it at the time. We are more aware or “woke” to it now. And yet we still do little or nothing except brush it off as not affecting our little worlds.
Instead, we worry today about which plastic toys we will waste money on this Christmas, where our next tank of fuel is coming from, where will will fly to for our
next holiday or which new mode of transport we will plough tens of thousands of pounds into.

[Axholme Lion]

Wonder how these heat pumps will work in Tower Blocks and streets and streets of terraced housing?

Exactly. It's a load of rubbish. Am i expected to dig up all my plants , shrubs, lawn and garden features to fit a new heating system? Sod off Boris.

Don't sweat it AL. Keep on using your gas guzzler and your central heating and in 20 years you'll have your own source of wave power on your doorstep in Axholme.

It'll need to rise a bit to get over the bankings along the Trent side.

If all the ice on earth melts then sea level will rise 68 metres.

Not in my lifetime.

And in those 4 words lies the problem for future generations.

No one in the past was concerned about what happens today. Why should we sentence ourselves to a life of misery when it won't make any difference in the long run. China and India will still pollute the world to death regardless of what we do here. I don't care much for future generations, i'm bothered about the here and now. Mankind only has a limited lifespan left, in not many decades nature will take the earth back.

[KeithMyath]

And in those 79 words lies the problem for future generations…..

I’m by no means a climate activist, everyone is guilty of saying much but doing little, me included but as a species humans have evolved quicker, when we are put at adversity. In my opinion it will take a massive slap in the face to wake up this planet to what’s increasing round the corner. That massive slap will be in the order of millions dying/through lack of water. This is happening now, but soon in the next 5 years it will be the worlds biggest problem.

“By 2025, half of the world’s population will be living in water-stressed area. Currently
In the least developed countries, 22% of health care facilities have no water service, 21% no sanitation service, and 22% no waste management service, this is expected double by 2025”

So unless you want millions of people in rafts seeking something as basic as a glass of water arriving on our shores maybe the worlds powers,  governmental & Business need to do something about it.