Local Elections And Hartlepool

[Not Now Kato]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
 
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
 
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished.  And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is required reading for anyone who is genuinely interested in what is possible on the Left.
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/bidenomics-explained

Biden is ramming through a genuine revolution. He is finally burying the failure of the Reagan/Thatcher model.

The Left here has a choice. It can follow that example, unite behind an imperfect leader and actually try to win power and join that revolution.

Or it can stay fragmented, each group insisting that they need their specific moans attended to or the are leaving.

Not really a choice if we are honest and grown up, is it?

[drfchound]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
 
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
 
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished.  And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!

Kato, people from within his own Party are after Starmer as well.
I wonder why that is?

[DonnyOsmond]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Any imparticular?

Hi Hound x

[drfchound]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Any imparticular?

Hi Hound x

:




welcome:

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Which policies were you against?

Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.

Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
 
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
 
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished.  And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!

Kato, people from within his own Party are after Starmer as well.
I wonder why that is?

Hound.
Have a look at the history of the Labour Party. It was ever thus.

There were people trying to bring Attlee down in 1947...

[selby]

  That's where the Labour Party is now Billy, history with not a lot of a future.

[albie]

Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.

Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.

Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see

The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.

Hound,

Actually, the 2019 manifesto was very popular if you asked people for their opinion on individual measures.
The idea that it was unpopular (and not affordable) is just a myth pedalled by the Tory media.

Johnson has spaffed much more on crony contracts that achieve nothing but enrich donors, with barely a murmur in the mainstream press.

It is interesting that you think the manifesto was "financial pie in the sky", yet say nowt about Coco flashing the cash to his mates.

Do you have any evidence to back up your pie in the sky claim?

[BillyStubbsTears]

That "financial pie in the sky".

Biden is doing that on steroids right now. Watch the results over the next 2 years. Their economy will grow far faster than ours and the growth will be far more evenly spread. They are effectively bringing in a Universal Basic Income which is exactly what we need for the future.

[drfchound]

Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.



BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.

[DonnyOsmond]

Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.



BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

You'd assume wrongly.

[drfchound]

Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.



BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

You'd assume wrongly.

Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.

Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If I did say that, it was a mistake. The manifesto (on domestic economic matters) was fine. The problem was the panicked addition of things like the WASPI women payouts which were thrown into the campaign as afterthoughts and made the manifesto appear chaotic. That was a car crash.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.



BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

You'd assume wrongly.

Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.

Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.

Here is the key from that link.

"There are many possible reasons (why people like the policies but don't support Labour). One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”."

And that argument is currently being ripped to shreds by Biden. That "unaffordable" belief has been drummed into us by two generations of Thatcher/Reagan-omics that insisted that Govt spending had to be stripped back.

What Biden is doing is chucking that thinking in the dustbin of history where it belongs. By the next Election, that "unaffordable" argument will be demonstrated to be utter claptrap.

Big question is, can Labour rise above internecine arguments and seize that opportunity. It needs Labour to hammer on the issue that a radical economic plan is morally and practically right, and that it absolutely IS affordable. They should be screaming that message at every opportunity, not getting dragged into arguments over posturing about flags.

[tyke1962]

Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.



BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

You'd assume wrongly.

Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.

Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.

Here is the key from that link.

"There are many possible reasons (why people like the policies but don't support Labour). One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”."

And that argument is currently being ripped to shreds by Biden. That "unaffordable" belief has been drummed into us by two generations of Thatcher/Reagan-omics that insisted that Govt spending had to be stripped back.

What Biden is doing is chucking that thinking in the dustbin of history where it belongs. By the next Election, that "unaffordable" argument will be demonstrated to be utter claptrap.

Big question is, can Labour rise above internecine arguments and seize that opportunity. It needs Labour to hammer on the issue that a radical economic plan is morally and practically right, and that it absolutely IS affordable. They should be screaming that message at every opportunity, not getting dragged into arguments over posturing about flags.

Billy I don't disagree that Labour have to be radical on policy and invest in the country .

One of my other issues with Starmer is that he's brought Mandelson back to the fold .

The architect of New Labour will do exactly what it says on the tin and he's already pushing the party to throw all the left policies attributed to Corbyn out of the window .

I've no problem with Corbyn the man getting slung out but some of his ideas were pretty sound .

The free broadband in 2019 at that time was possibly for the fairies and it's timing was poor .

However the pandemic has proved just how much we rely on the internet whether that's through work or simply keeping in contact with friends and family .

It's actually very much in the game today .

Do you think Starmer and Mandelson would use a Corbyn policy ?

I suspect not because they are intent on putting as much distance as they can between socialist policies  and going back towards New Labour .

I'm only a trade union member these days and not active but I do know from what I've been told that Starmer has distanced himself from the trade union movement , yet another New Labour trait .

I understand your previous posts about unity and compromises .

Bear in mind we've been here before with Blair .

Compromises and Unity are a two way street Billy .

[SydneyRover]

Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........

!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc

[Not Now Kato]

Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........

!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc

Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.

[Ldr]

Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........

!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc

Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.

Is it any wonder you can't convince ppl of the merits of voting Labour when all you have is insults and condescension? At least BST provides arguments

[Not Now Kato]

Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........

!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc

Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.

Is it any wonder you can't convince ppl of the merits of voting Labour when all you have is insults and condescension? At least BST provides arguments

Evidence has been consistently been provided of Tory lying, cronyism and illegal actions by many on here.  Odd that non of you Tory fan boys have criticised any of that at all!  Your lack of criticism of these actions can only mean that you approve of them, and that is a far greater insult!
 
Here's a few reminders of what you appear to support....
 
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
 
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/boris-johnson-top-ten-lies-2020-and-89768
 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html
 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/21/boris-johnson-lies-marcus-rashford-prime-minister
 
Baaaaaaaa.

[Ldr]

But, but, but the tories.......

[Ldr]

Come on NNK sell voting Labour WITHOUT resorting to insults, condescension or referring to the tories

[SydneyRover]

Rise above percieved insults Ldr and tell us you can't support johnson insulting the population either directly as not of his ilk or generally in thinking the anyone could possibly believe any of it.

[Ldr]

I cant support him Syd, the man is a buffoon. If you recall I left the Party over the Cummings Barnard Castle shit. My vote is up for grabs but tbh ppl like NNK et al tend to put me off even considering Labour as I don't want to be associated with the insults and condescension which is why I asked to sell voting labour to me. But but the tories isn't justification to me. Likely to abstain atm

[Not Now Kato]

Come on NNK sell voting Labour WITHOUT resorting to insults, condescension or referring to the tories

But I'm not trying to sell voting Labour Ldr, I'm pointing out that by voting Tory people are actually voting for, and showing their approval of, the country being lied to, cronyism and to allow the government to break the law when it feels like it.  Are you happy to do that? Seriously?
 
For the record, I'm in the classic demographic for being a Tory voter - Own my house outright, have absolutely no debt whatsoever, gold plated pension, money in the bank and my shares are doing rather well; but I have higher principles than to sell out to a bunch of shysters who are 'in it' for themselves and their mates, and demonstrate a 'screw the country' attitude.

[Ldr]

I refer you to my post to Syd NNK

[Not Now Kato]

I refer you to my post to Syd NNK

Just read it Ldr, and thanks. And I wont try to sell Labour to you, nor any other party.  My view, FWIW, is to look at each parties manifesto, (is it good for the country as a whole, is it realistic, is it achievable), look at how they've behaved over the last governmental period, ignore the media in the run up to a GE/Bi-election, (right or left wing, and particularly social media); and vote for what you believe to be in the countries best interests.
 
My view on abstentions is that they are a waste of a good vote.  Better to 'protest' by voting for one of the minor parties or spoiling your ballot paper with words such as 'I have no faith in any of these people/parties'.
 
Also, FWIW, I hate the First Past The Post system, it's about as undemocratic a supposedly democratic country can get! It brings huge divisions, as witnessed in this thread and others, and can never be in the best interests of the country as a whole. PR is the only way forward, it works well in much of the civilised world, why not here?

[drfchound]

The thing about our FPTP system is that is suddenly is outdated because Labour probably won’t win again in the foreseeable future under that method.
It was ok the last time Labour won though.
As for deliberately spoiling a ballot paper, isn’t that more or less the same as an abstention.
How does someone vote neutral I saw asked earlier, simple, don’t vote at all
I feel the same as ldr in many ways.
The attitude of many Labour supporters, on this forum and elsewhere, seems to be that if you don’t vote Labour you are thick.
That simply puts me off being associated with them or the Labour Party.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

Why do this? here have been people on the Left calling from PR for decades. I myself have said numerous times in here that Blair winning a 190 seat majority with 43% of the vote is unacceptable.

As regarding accusations of Tory voters being thick, I don't think anyone has said that. But there is a frustration that many of the right-leaning people in here simply refuse to engage on discussion on substantive issues. That doesn't mean someone is thick, but it does mean it is difficult to engage with them.

[drfchound]

BST, I feel sure that I have seen Tory supporters being referred to as thick and other insulting words, on the forum and elsewhere.
No doubt you will do your best to prove me wrong by using the search bar but whatever the outcome of that, I still feel that some Labour supporters on this forum, with their attitudes to anyone who isn’t in their camp, have put me off ever standing alongside them politically.

By the way, I typed “thick” into the search bar myself and it put up two posts only.
Guess which ones.
I am sure you will agree that that word will have been used more than twice on here in the last ten years or so.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

I've said once or twice that Farage and Johnson assume their supporters are thick. If they didn't, they wouldn't serve up the most blatant lies I've ever heard from politicians and expect people to swallow them uncomplainingly.