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Author Topic: Local Elections And Hartlepool  (Read 24107 times)

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selby

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #420 on May 07, 2021, 09:36:54 pm by selby »
  Wilts, I agree with what you are saying mostly about the Tory party, they have always been that way, Labour however have morphed into the same ways, and are insulting with it. The  university educated MPs they put in front of the cameras have the attitude of superiority and we know best flowing out from their mouths.
  They are finished, people have had enough of the clap trap, taken for granted and being told that because of age, what part of the country they live in, the way they talk, that London is really England and all things have to be centred there, that the UK is nothing to be proud of, that we are little Englanders, that we are now Europeans, the Union flag is not to be flown or respected, that Federal Europe is the way we should go, it is not going to wash anymore, especially from the party that people like those who hold all those things dear to them, And by the way I can remember Hartlepool in the 15 years that Labour were in charge of them and in that period like a lot of the North East industries Labour shut them down.



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Filo

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #421 on May 07, 2021, 09:53:00 pm by Filo »
Labour on Doncaster council actually increased their majority by one

selby

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #422 on May 07, 2021, 10:00:28 pm by selby »
  That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.

Sprotyrover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #423 on May 07, 2021, 10:13:18 pm by Sprotyrover »
Quote from: wilts rover link=topic=280646.msg1053918#msg1053918 dates=1620410678
What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?

It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.

This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.

But again this doesn't make any sense.

The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!

Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!

But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.

Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
Boris Johnsons Great Grandmother was a slave a sex slave even put that in yer pipe and smoke it!

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #424 on May 07, 2021, 10:22:00 pm by SydneyRover »
  That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/21/exclusive-labour-councils-in-england-hit-harder-by-austerity-than-tory-areas

tyke1962

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #425 on May 07, 2021, 10:35:04 pm by tyke1962 »
  That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/21/exclusive-labour-councils-in-england-hit-harder-by-austerity-than-tory-areas

At what point is it ever going to reconcile with such as yourself that it's not what the tories are , have ever been or ever likely to be .

But what Labour is , stands by , connects with , has credible policies and cut through to election success .

Pointing at the Tories , pardon me for saying ain't exactly working .

FFS give the electorate something to vote FOR .


SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #426 on May 07, 2021, 10:41:03 pm by SydneyRover »
Just tell this this one thing Tyke, if brexit was so damned good why didn't Corbyn support it?

Nothing Tyke, nothing at all?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:00:16 pm by SydneyRover »

tyke1962

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #427 on May 07, 2021, 11:12:33 pm by tyke1962 »
Just tell this this one thing Tyke, if brexit was so damned good why didn't Corbyn support it?

Corbyn knew what the EU was as a backbench MP , slightly different take when you are leader and have to appease the Labour factions , weak , coward , what ever .

We've all taken a hit on the left with this Brexit thing , even Skinner as anti EU as he was lost his seat ffs .

I could easily push this the other way .

If back in centre Labour control why doesn't Starmer stand up , have a pair and make the case for what he actually believes in .

Make the case forejoining the EU , at worst have better links .

Even though I'm against that I'd at least respect his convictions .

Weak , weak and weak .

As somebody once said who won 3 elections .

As much as I loath the fecker , at least Blair stood up at the Labour Party Conference and told us how it was going to be with Clause what ever it was .

Cowards and weak today .

Starmer stands for nothing , connects with nobody and is nothing .

I'll respect someone who stands up whether I agree with him or not .








« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 11:14:39 pm by tyke1962 »

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #428 on May 07, 2021, 11:25:59 pm by SydneyRover »
''Why doesn't Starmer'' now you're sounding like selby

When I answered the selby dim question about potholes with a valid reason you gave a good impression of HA's vox pop blaming a party not in government.

Corbyn in the end was as conflicted as johnson about brexit and he had his chance to bring the party together after 2017, but as we all know he didn't.

albie

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #429 on May 08, 2021, 12:29:18 am by albie »
Sydney,

"Corbyn in the end was as conflicted as johnson about brexit and he had his chance to bring the party together after 2017, but as we all know he didn't".

I think that is confusing his personal opinion with the role of party leader.

The Labour right, led by Steer Karma in cabinet, lobbied for Ref2.
This was a big mistake, and allowed the Tories to exploit the weakness of Labour in response to the original referendum.

Corbyn could have sacked the plotters and gone down a different route, but chose to try to keep them onboard. That was a mistake as well, because they kept sniping.

They should have been shown the door after the failed chicken coup, and gone down the Change UK route with Chuka.

I reckon Labour will now fracture before the next GE. If they manage to hold Batley in the next By-election, that will act as a sticking plaster, but not resolve the divisions.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #430 on May 08, 2021, 12:56:08 am by SydneyRover »
One can only do stuff 'in power' and as Corbyn was in power then he should have done what he needed to do and if that meant sacking Starmer he should have done it, but he's a ditherer and didn't grasp the nettle on a list of things. That is now history and Starmer is trying to unite the party and is not afraid of removing those that want to live in the past. You may dislike this approach but it one that Corbyn should have taken.

For what it's worth I would have Corbyn's humanity and goals over most, those that use prejudice to gain power don't deserve a place at the table.


selby

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #431 on May 08, 2021, 07:04:02 am by selby »
  Syd, are you daft, in the sixties I was paying the highest property rates outside the city of Westminster living in Norton near Askern, the only thing that has beaten inflation and property prices in that time has been the pensions of the council workers and the fees and expenses claimed by the councilors.
 The main expenditure in Doncaster over the last twenty years has been the civic centre area which is mainly supported by local tax payers money and has achieved the shut down of that side of the town commercially.
   Millions spent on bus lanes and park and ride that they could grow spuds on most days and use the space more productively, that actually made pollution worse with congestion.
  They will finish the place off with congestion charges no doubt. I wonder how many of the
 councilors would be willing to give up their expenses claims and did it for the prestige of the town  as used to be the case and not for personal gain would 1) still be members of the Labour party to get on the council 2)  would actually do the job for bare expenses and no monetary gain.
  Every old pit village in the area is still dependant on the old Welfare sports facilities and are miles behind what other areas have whereas in the sixties because industries supplied them they were way in front, and the council have drastically cut their upkeep of those facilities and are mostly run by village volunteers now, originally the council took over the Welfare sports areas because they failed to provide the required facilities per thousands of population and have gradually withdrawn their services over time. If checks were done it may be that they are now not fulfilling their legal responsibilities.
  Sandall Beat was football and cricket pitches sold to a stable company for a pound I seem to remember.
  The best test is like the NHS, if you haven't got a relation there or know someone you haven't got a chance of getting a job there.

Filo

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #432 on May 08, 2021, 07:19:12 am by Filo »
  Syd, are you daft, in the sixties I was paying the highest property rates outside the city of Westminster living in Norton near Askern, the only thing that has beaten inflation and property prices in that time has been the pensions of the council workers and the fees and expenses claimed by the councilors.
 The main expenditure in Doncaster over the last twenty years has been the civic centre area which is mainly supported by local tax payers money and has achieved the shut down of that side of the town commercially.
   Millions spent on bus lanes and park and ride that they could grow spuds on most days and use the space more productively, that actually made pollution worse with congestion.
  They will finish the place off with congestion charges no doubt. I wonder how many of the
 councilors would be willing to give up their expenses claims and did it for the prestige of the town  as used to be the case and not for personal gain would 1) still be members of the Labour party to get on the council 2)  would actually do the job for bare expenses and no monetary gain.
  Every old pit village in the area is still dependant on the old Welfare sports facilities and are miles behind what other areas have whereas in the sixties because industries supplied them they were way in front, and the council have drastically cut their upkeep of those facilities and are mostly run by village volunteers now, originally the council took over the Welfare sports areas because they failed to provide the required facilities per thousands of population and have gradually withdrawn their services over time. If checks were done it may be that they are now not fulfilling their legal responsibilities.
  Sandall Beat was football and cricket pitches sold to a stable company for a pound I seem to remember.
  The best test is like the NHS, if you haven't got a relation there or know someone you haven't got a chance of getting a job there.

Have a look what Labourrun Stainforth Parish Council are doing with the Welfare grounds in Stainforth. You’re firing from the hip again!

River Don

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #433 on May 08, 2021, 08:12:59 am by River Don »
The Guardian view makes for interesting reading this morning.

They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.

This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.

If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:26:10 am by River Don »

drfchound

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #434 on May 08, 2021, 08:28:07 am by drfchound »
The Guardian view make for interesting reading this morning.

They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.

This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.

If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.





Presenting Brexit as being successful would clearly upset quite a few on here.
Most of whom are Labour people.

River Don

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #435 on May 08, 2021, 08:37:38 am by River Don »
I know Hound.

Perhaps they could come to terms with it, if they said the question of the EU may return sometime in the future. But we've got to try and succeed in the now.

If not, the danger is every future election turns into a referendum on the EU.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 08:46:55 am by River Don »

drfchound

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #436 on May 08, 2021, 08:49:32 am by drfchound »
RD, I suggested to one of our posters a few weeks ago that he should understand that Brexit is here and that he should accept it and get on with it.
I was “put in my place” for daring to suggest such a thing.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #437 on May 08, 2021, 08:51:35 am by SydneyRover »
and commenters on here have been saying for month you won brexit get over it, so get over it and enjoy.

River Don

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #438 on May 08, 2021, 08:56:22 am by River Don »
Well if they can't do it then to try and win an election, the Labour Party would have to join outright with the Lib Dems and SNP on a pro EU ticket. If the UK rejoins the EU then Scottish nationalism becomes much less potent.

They would have to hope they could attract enough pro-EU Tory votes to make up for the lost Labour votes.

It would be a major fissure on UK politics, with no guarantee the numbers are there to make it work.


SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #439 on May 08, 2021, 09:04:36 am by SydneyRover »
I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less

drfchound

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #440 on May 08, 2021, 09:06:05 am by drfchound »
and commenters on here have been saying for month you won brexit get over it, so get over it and enjoy.





I voted remain.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #441 on May 08, 2021, 09:07:09 am by SydneyRover »
Why hound?

drfchound

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #442 on May 08, 2021, 09:09:46 am by drfchound »
Why ?
Not really sure why it should matter to someone who it doesn’t impact on.
Why does Brexit matter to you.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #443 on May 08, 2021, 09:11:35 am by SydneyRover »
Why ?
Not really sure why it should matter to someone who it doesn’t impact on.
Why does Brexit matter to you.

how do you come to that conclusion?

bump
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 09:18:17 am by SydneyRover »

River Don

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #444 on May 08, 2021, 09:11:50 am by River Don »
I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less

It's a longtime to wait to be proven right and its a gamble Brexit will really fail badly. If the UK just meanders on, that's probably enough. A great many people won't grasp the concept of opportunity cost.

 In the meantime a Tory government continues to push on in power.

drfchound

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #445 on May 08, 2021, 09:15:11 am by drfchound »
Absolutely RD.
Those grapes will be even more sour in years to come.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #446 on May 08, 2021, 09:17:52 am by SydneyRover »
I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less

It's a longtime to wait to be proven right and its a gamble Brexit will really fail badly. If the UK just meanders on, that's probably enough. A great many people won't grasp the concept of opportunity cost.

 In the meantime a Tory government continues to push on in power.

I wouldn't be claiming victory 10 years hence RD that would be silly, I'm just thinking of the businesses doing it tough, as many have already said. ''Look for other markets'' they were told

selby

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #447 on May 08, 2021, 09:34:11 am by selby »
  The EU will do well to exist in ten years time as you know it now Syd. If it does not ditch it's ambition of Federalism and revert into just a trade agreement it will fail, especially in the southern Mediterranean states will go tits up when the northern states stop their tab.

SydneyRover

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #448 on May 08, 2021, 09:40:23 am by SydneyRover »
It was you that said Leeds would bounce straight back down again selby and that was your specialist subject aye?

selby

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Re: Local Elections And Hartlepool
« Reply #449 on May 08, 2021, 10:11:53 am by selby »
  Filo, look at where when I was a kid I played tennis, bowls. walked in gardens with flower beds and played in the children's park with slides, bobby's helmet, swings, and sand pit, they are building houses on it.
  Go on the Askern Photo group page on facebook and take a look at the amenities the village had from the 1920's that no longer exist, and read the comments what residents in the village think about it.
  As for Leeds Syd I am hoping for an implosion and second year syndrome like Sheffield United, at least I can be wrong about something, it seems you think you are never wrong, but In think some of us know better.

 

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