Scottish Indyref 2

[normal rules]

It seems this is gathering momentum again.
With some of our supporter base no doubt exiled North of the Border, and some with family and or friends in Scotland, what are people’s thoughts on this?
Consider that if independence does ever occur, the SNP have made it clear they would, if allowed,  reapply  to join the EU.
What chaos would ensue if this became a reality.?
Is anyone bothered? Should we be?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Well it does affect us all clearly.  I'm more for it than I used to be. Scotland (through snp policies) is diverging from the rest of the UK more so each year.

Most of my family is Scottish. Most are against independence.  The snp argument contradicts itself. They want more integration with Europe but less with the rest of the UK.  They want that with no border and they want their own currency. They also can't run their economy at anything but a huge deficit.  A lot of the arguments don't make sense but culturally it matters to them.

One aspect not noted is how the Scottish education system had driven a lot of this. There's a lot of teaching about politics in Scottish schools and that makes a huge difference.

[Filo]

Lots of issues need sorting before the go independent, they will not be in NATO for a start, so who will be responsible for their defence, is the rest of the UK going to spend on Scottish defence? They have no currency, they will be tied to the BoE if they want to use the £, Border Controls? Who finances that?

The SNP are living in Cuckoo land if you ask me

[belton rover]

Big. I wasn’t aware about politics in Scottish education. Do you think it’s a deliberate attempt to get young Scottish people on the side of independence? That’s quite a frightening thought, if so.

[SydneyRover]

Lots of issues need sorting before the go independent, they will not be in NATO for a start, so who will be responsible for their defence, is the rest of the UK going to spend on Scottish defence? They have no currency, they will be tied to the BoE if they want to use the £, Border Controls? Who finances that?

The SNP are living in Cuckoo land if you ask me

Will Scotland need Nato if they are accepted into the EU following a split from the UK?

[Filo]

Lots of issues need sorting before the go independent, they will not be in NATO for a start, so who will be responsible for their defence, is the rest of the UK going to spend on Scottish defence? They have no currency, they will be tied to the BoE if they want to use the £, Border Controls? Who finances that?

The SNP are living in Cuckoo land if you ask me

Will Scotland need Nato if they are accepted into the EU following a split from the UK?

It will be years before Scotland meets the criteria to join the EU, who defends them in the meantime?

[SydneyRover]

Would the UK and the EU stand on the side lines if in they were attacked and who would do that?

[drfchound]

LoL.
I guess that if they were invaded we would be safe because we would have border control to stop an invading army, oh, and Hadrian’s Wall might need a bit of reinforcing.

[SydneyRover]

I guess the only reason a separate Scotland would be attacked is if they still wanted and allowed trident missiles to be in in their territory

lol?

[SydneyRover]

fyi hound, hadrian's wall is in England

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Big. I wasn’t aware about politics in Scottish education. Do you think it’s a deliberate attempt to get young Scottish people on the side of independence? That’s quite a frightening thought, if so.

It wasn't when I was there as I was educated there before snp were in power and I think it's a good thing the young are educated in politics.  It does though help snp build momentum I feel.

The snp stance on it all just isn't logical to me, there stance on so many issues is short sighted.

[River Don]

I don't think Scottish Independance can really work particularly now North Sea oil revenues are under pressure and really we should be working to keep what's left of that oil under the sea anyway.

Truth be told the Scots don't even really want Independance now. They want to be a part of the EU.

There is probably a good argument that Labour should adopt an unambiguous pro EU stance and make a pact with the SNP on the understanding that the UK would rejoin the EU and Scotland would get more devolved powers.

That should placate Scotland, sort out N Ireland and It's the only way I can see the Labour Party getting a sniff at power again.

[SydneyRover]

There's a lot of merit in that call RD.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't think Scottish Independance can really work particularly now North Sea oil revenues are under pressure and really we should be working to keep what's left of that oil under the sea anyway.

Truth be told the Scots don't even really want Independance now. They want to be a part of the EU.

There is probably a good argument that Labour should adopt an unambiguous pro EU stance and make a pact with the SNP on the understanding that the UK would rejoin the EU and Scotland would get more devolved powers.

That should placate Scotland, sort out N Ireland and It's the only way I can see the Labour Party getting a sniff at power again.

I think you misunderstand the snp. They aren't Pro EU it's a means to an end. They are pro independence nothing more, nothing less.

[drfchound]

fyi hound, hadrian's wall is in England

Did I say anything different.
The invaders would still have to get past it wouldn’t they, you know, like in days gone by, built to keep the Scots back.   

[SydneyRover]

Did you get your mum to help you with the answer, it took you long enough?

[River Don]

I don't think Scottish Independance can really work particularly now North Sea oil revenues are under pressure and really we should be working to keep what's left of that oil under the sea anyway.

Truth be told the Scots don't even really want Independance now. They want to be a part of the EU.

There is probably a good argument that Labour should adopt an unambiguous pro EU stance and make a pact with the SNP on the understanding that the UK would rejoin the EU and Scotland would get more devolved powers.

That should placate Scotland, sort out N Ireland and It's the only way I can see the Labour Party getting a sniff at power again.

I think you misunderstand the snp. They aren't Pro EU it's a means to an end. They are pro independence nothing more, nothing less.

I doubt the majority Scots population buy into the idea of Independance in that way though. They don't want a hard border near Hadrians wall and a new Scottish groat and the fountain of wealth in the North Sea doesn't exist anymore.

What's driving the independence movement in Scotland now is the prospect of rejoining the EU and getting away from the Tory government and Brexit.

[drfchound]

Did you get your mum to help you with the answer, it took you long enough?

You really are an obnoxious person SR.
I have other things to do, probably unlike yourself.
You have suggested that I don’t know where Hadrian’s Wall is just start an argument when clearly my post didn’t suggest anything like that.
Also, for your information, my mother is dead so please don’t be a prat by bringing her into your imaginary world.
Half a World away.

[Sprotyrover]

I don't understand the mentality of the SNP , they want independence from the Uk Parliament and they then intend to join the EU and get governed by  Twits from Luxembourg and Poland!
They claim they barely trade with us but in reality 80% of their trade is with us!
They seem to think they can harvest a vast bonanza of wealth from, oil Gas and Coal reserves, they are all grey power sources and will be in total decline in the next decade.
Oil revenue makes up 1% of the U.K. GNP.they have some Blue sky vision of being able to finance their country with these meagre resources. . Faslane will become the Guantanamo bay of Britain, The warship building programme will go to British Ship yards, The Shetlands and Orkney will vote for their own independence or remain in the U.K. They are casting themselves adrift from the massive Power output which will be coming from The Dogger Bank wind power infrastructure.
As for Defence they will be like Eire, totally reliant on The UK for Air defence. On the plus side they can save their Shipbuilding industry by building a Littorial Naval defence Force.
I assume the Scots in The UK will have similar travel rights as to Eire citizens.

[Sprotyrover]

Oh and by the way it's our National Debt, its nowt to do with them, AND we owe em a couple of hundred £Billion in Oil money we skanked.!
Looks like they will not be re joining the EU after all, who have issues of a similar nature with parts of Spain, Belgium etc!
Omething similar happened in The former Yugoslavia when Tito died I seem to recall.

[albie]

The point is simple really....self determination.

You can only have that if you have control of your own currency. The EU argument needs to factor this in.

Bottom line is that it is up to them.
If it turns out to have downsides, then that is up to them to sort it.

Nowt to do with us really, is it?
What if the EU had said to Cameron that we could not have a referendum on leaving....there would have been uproar!
Yet Bozo seems to think its OK to say that to Scots, although they have a pro-ref majority...barmy!

[belton rover]

But you can’t just keep having referendums until you win. Both sides called it the referendum of a generation. Until one side lost.

[River Don]

The thing with the Scottish independence referendum and the EU referendum was in both cases the results were quite close. That's why they don't feel definitive.

And since the Scottish vote we have had Brexit, which has changed the arrangement.

I think the government is going to find it difficult to resist calls for a 2nd referendum.

The two things are linked. Scotland hasn't yet agreed to remain part of the UK outside of the EU and without Scotland remaining a part of the UK, I don't think Brexit really works either.

[albie]

But you can’t just keep having referendums until you win. Both sides called it the referendum of a generation. Until one side lost.

Belton,

It is about renewing the mandate. That's why we have a GE every 5 years!

The electoral roll is changing all the time,
Would it be fair to bind the younger generation to a choice made by those who have passed away?

By 2024 some of those young uns will be mid twenties, its only fair that they have the chance to reconsider.
I reckon 10 years is about right. Sturgeon was not saying NOW, just within this election cycle.

Seems very reasonable to me!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

But you can’t just keep having referendums until you win. Both sides called it the referendum of a generation. Until one side lost.

Belton,

It is about renewing the mandate. That's why we have a GE every 5 years!

The electoral roll is changing all the time,
Would it be fair to bind the younger generation to a choice made by those who have passed away?

By 2024 some of those young uns will be mid twenties, its only fair that they have the chance to reconsider.
I reckon 10 years is about right. Sturgeon was not saying NOW, just within this election cycle.

Seems very reasonable to me!

On the contrary do you fix that referendum and do it again every ten years then no matter what the result?

7 years ago 55% of people voted to keep the union in a once in a generation vote, quite comprehensive.  That also disregards the many Scots who don't live in Scotland and were not given a say in the future of their country.

[albie]

Pud,

No, you respect the wish of the majority if they want to revisit the matter after 10 years.
That works both ways, so if a majority wanted to restore the union that would have equal merit.

55% (of those who voted) is not comprehensive, it is a narrow result which can easily change over 10 years. The number of governments who have lost such a position in a short time scale are numerous.

I agree with your point about non-doms though.

There is a basic problem with this "once in a generation" rhetoric...it is complete nonsense when applied to democratic systems of governance. That Cameron should use the term is not surprising, but it has no meaning or constitutional validity.

[belton rover]

Albie, I don’t see the comparison with a GE.

[albie]

Belton,
It is about what is a reasonable timescale to use.
See my reply to Pud where I explain the reasoning.

[belton rover]

But 10 years isn’t a reasonable timescale for such a huge, momentous and very expensive referendum.
Potentially, by that system, Scotland could have 10 years in and 10 years out continuously.
It makes no sense.

[albie]

So what is reasonable, Belton?
I am not wedded to 10 years, give me your bid.

Keep in mind there would only be a call for a referendum if a majority supported it. It is very unlikely to repeat as you suggest switching between demands.

The key fact is that across the UK almost 700k people die each year.
These are replaced by the new intake, who tend to have a different perspective.

Do the maths, and explain why the current voters should be bound by a decision taken by their grandparents.

The idea is that over 10 years a significant change in the electorate has taken place, and the political outcome from that needs to be recognised.