Israel

[BobG]

I don't recall the last time Hamas kidnapped western journalists. I don't remember the last time the armed forces of Palestine deliberately shot and murdered a western journalist out collecting information. I don't remember the last time a Palestinian government kidnapped a foreign national, held him prisoner for months, killed him and then dumped his body in the Negev desert. But the Israeli's have done all three.

The distinction between cause, and effect, is an absolutely vital one Sproty. Confusing them leads to disastrous mistakes in analysis, and, of course, disaster.

BobG

[ravenrover]

I thought part of the cause was the eviction of Palistinians from a settlement so the Israelies could move in

[wilts rover]

Funny how history changes isn't it.

Anyone seen the film Laurence of Arabia, based on real events, where the main character organises the local Arab tribes in Palestine to play a big part in defeating the German/Turkish forces in the area during WW1?

Or read about the Irgun attacks on the British forces in Palestine from the mid-1930's until 1948. Several British soldiers were murdered, including two NCO's who were hanged and their bodies boobytrapped for their colleagues to find, 91 people died when they blew up the British HQ in Jerusalem.

I suggest you do. Then read about the 1967 War. Then choose a side.

[wilts rover]

I thought part of the cause was the eviction of Palistinians from a settlement so the Israelies could move in

Yes, but not a settlement - part of the Arab area of East Jerusalem as defined under the 1948 agreement.

[selby]

  That's the trouble Wilts there are two sides split on religious lines and they will never accept each other.
  And while people play hell with us supplying the Israelis with arms, nobody is that bothered with the Iranians and Russians supplying the Arabs.
  The original agreement affected 700,000 Palestinians, now it is 5,000,000 so they have not had that bad a time of it.

[wilts rover]

  That's the trouble Wilts there are two sides split on religious lines and they will never accept each other.

I spent some time over there a while back, working for a Jewish farmer, really, really nice guy. All the Arab workers I worked alongside said the same - but they weren't quite as complimentary about some of the other people around. This was just after the first intefada, when the borders were closed and they couldn't get to work - he continued to pay them.

What he said was that there was no reason everyone could not get along because we all need and depend on one another, but to have peace both sides need to lose. And the madmen (on both sides) are only interested in being seen to win.

Not everyone over there is on one side or the other - but there are enough who gain benefit from there being two sides. It's important to remember that.

[SydneyRover]

I will only support organisations who's ultimate goal is peace, it can be done look at NI.

[Sprotyrover]

I am not a big fan of the Isrealis but I can't see a solution to this, especially with 20 odd million Jews in the States calling the tune of the US Government. On the othe side it's cowardly of Hamas to hide behind women and children and then waves bits of arms and legs at TV cameras to score brownie points.the Israelis seem to struggle at reigning in their own extremists, and I am aware that 10% of the Palestinian Arabs are Christians. Religious factions have been falling out there for over a thousand years, I can't see an end to it either.

[selby]

  Its like Fulham v Watford to me, it has been going on all my life and doesn't really bother me. And like a cup match between Manchester United and Gillingham you know the result the week before.

[BobG]

It doesn't bother you?? The conflict between Israel and the Arabs is the single biggest cause of trouble in the world today man! And that absolutely affects you directly.

Jordan, 1970. 3 hijacked airliners blown up by Al Fatah at Dawson's Field. That began the process which today forces you to queue for hours, to take your shoes off, to not carry drinks, to have all your bags searched, before you can board a plane. Guess what drove Al Fatah to blow those planes up...

Israel - set up by violent men with a violent creed in a violent manner. I agree they needed to defend themselves. Lord Balfour dropped the whole world in the shit with his Declaration. But it led to ever hardening positions amongst the Arabs that the Israeli's have ever since tried to throw off their own land. And the only sources of support Israel found were to play upon the German guilt complex and to use the American Jewish lobby. Upon both of which they continue to spend billions.
 
The never ending support for Israel by the US is underwritten by billions of dollars.  Money, along with power and influence. And it permanently places America on one side of a conflict that no one can ever win. America has a geopolitical interest in the Middle East so leverage in Tel Aviv is always useful, but the price the Americans pay for that leverage is high and getting higher. It puts them at odds with countless hundreds of millions of people around the world. It has completely undermined their ability to act as the honest broker leading the world with justice that the Americans, clearly, would like to be.

September 11th was a direct consequence of this support for Israel. That has directly affected you, Selby, because it has led to the creation of stringent control systems and stringent data recording by governments, including our own, about each and every one of us. (Far, far more data recording actually. I happen to have personal knowledge. It is scary what is recorded about each and every one of us today). And that process is still going on. Voter ID is only the latest – and that is from the party that stands for individual freedoms…

Those billions that Israel spends to ensure it gets the support it wants is, effectively, corrupt. It devalues those that receive it and it devalues those that give it. It has devalued the moral fibre of the whole planet. If the support of the richest nation in the whole world, the leading nation in the whole world, the nation that professes equality, and fairness and human rights, can be bought by a nation that kidnaps and murders scientists from other nations, that defies UN Resolutions, that denies having nuclear weapons,  what hope has anyone else of moral rectitude? That affects every single one of us. How can it be otherwise Selby? America unfailingly has supported a murderous regime for 70 odd years. It has shown that, despite the talk, the West does not care about people. The West has consistently supported the powerful bully. The West, the nations that, in the interest of ‘human rights’, interfere in just about every other nations internal affairs, lets the Israeli’s do anything it likes to the people within its own borders. It shows the world that the West cares for money and power and influence. Not people. Why else do so many of the Arabs hate us so much? That affects every single one of us Selby.

It led to Afghanistan. Forget the cost of that to the whole world - in just this country, Britain, it cost tens and tens of billions of pounds. And several hundred deaths. That has directly affected you Selby.

It affects us all, Selby, because it has corrupted the leadership of the one nation that should strive to lead the world to a better place. It has led to the wasting of tens of billions of pounds and dollars in futile attempts to bolster one side in a fight that neither side can ever win. And that too affects you Selby. President Eisenhower warned against the military–industrial complex in 1961. Every $1 spent on the military costs society around $10 in lost productivity (I can’t remember the exact numbers now. It could be more). That money could have been used to address global warming. Or Covid. Or poverty. Or illiteracy. And every one of those affects every one of us.

We, the British, the originators of this tragedy, we, the latter day American lap dogs, are doomed to see  the Arab-Israeli conflict and its consequences affect our lives, our politics, our political decision making and scrutiny of our personal lives by our government, all because Israel has consistently refused to constructively sit down with the Arabs.

And you don't care Selby? Shame on you.

BobG

[BobG]

Funnyy that Selby. I didnt think you would be. Your ignorance is obvious

Cheers

BobG.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Don't you ever complain in future when you are called an ignorant racist. You've just demonstrated your ignorance and racism.

[selby]

  That's alright Billy I have joined the club that are racist against their own with comments of gammon, thick, uneducated, at least the Brexit voters are dying etc.etc. or is your and the disciples insults acceptable to you.
 Pots and Kettles come to mind, and eventually the done thing your lot do to get noticed scream and stamp your feet to taint people with the racist handle you don't agree with and don't think the way you think they should.
  That's how the Commies acted in Russia, and the way you and your lot are going; and the reason the woke agenda that labour promote will be the death of them. 

[Filo]

So what happened to my post asking if racism was allowed on the forum these days?

Who removed it and why?

[BillyStubbsTears]

  That's alright Billy I have joined the club that are racist against their own with comments of gammon, thick, uneducated, at least the Brexit voters are dying etc.etc. or is your and the disciples insults acceptable to you.
 Pots and Kettles come to mind, and eventually the done thing your lot do to get noticed scream and stamp your feet to taint people with the racist handle you don't agree with and don't think the way you think they should.
  That's how the Commies acted in Russia, and the way you and your lot are going; and the reason the woke agenda that labour promote will be the death of them. 

I do NOT use "the racist handle" to taint people I don't agree with.

I DO however call out racists when they show their true colours. Like you did last night. Disgusting.

[drfcdrfc]

Surely that comment deserves a ban. f**king disgusting

[selby]

  Is that the end game then you can offend people but I think the term is you want to close others down, smacks of Russia to me. that in itself is disgusting, especially when people have been taunted with Gammons, the older Brexit voters are dying out, your generations had it all.
   Give over look at yourselves like the gestapo and Stasi what they stood for and how they behaved, and what you are supposed to hate.
  No need I will not post on this thread again. I hope you have more success than everyone who has tried to solve this problem since 1947  have had.
  By the way drfcdrfc your last comment on a forum and thread that can be read by juniors  is disgusting.

[wilts rover]

I think my view on the problems in Israel/Palestine is very clear.

As is my contention that Brexit and the Johnson Vote Leave government have emboldend and legitimised fascism and fascists in the UK. You don't show you are not a fascist by saying you are not a fascist. You show you are not a fascist by not posting or supporting fascist views:

[BillyStubbsTears]

No-one wants to close you down if you have anything to offer Selby.

If you don't have anything to offer, other than racist slurs, don't complain when someone points out that you are racist.

[selby]

  You are entitled to your opinion Billy and I defend your right to express it. The fact is you are wrong.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Which part of you using racist slurs am I wrong about?

[MachoMadness]

So what happened to my post asking if racism was allowed on the forum these days?

Who removed it and why?

Did you quote Selby's post which was removed? That might be why.

Selby, I know you think you're always being clever winding people up, but the right thing to do would be to be a man, hold your hands up and admit you went too far, no? Instead of melting down calling people communists and Nazis because of brexit(?) on a thread that is nothing to do with any of those things.

[drfcdrfc]

  Is that the end game then you can offend people but I think the term is you want to close others down, smacks of Russia to me. that in itself is disgusting, especially when people have been taunted with Gammons, the older Brexit voters are dying out, your generations had it all.
   Give over look at yourselves like the gestapo and Stasi what they stood for and how they behaved, and what you are supposed to hate.
  No need I will not post on this thread again. I hope you have more success than everyone who has tried to solve this problem since 1947  have had.
  By the way drfcdrfc your last comment on a forum and thread that can be read by juniors  is disgusting.

I know what I would rather hear from a child's mouth.

You deserve banning for that comment. The fact that your still posting on here is depressing for the future of the human race.

Surely when you get to your age, you should have a bit more about you. Instead, you typify a stereotype. Sadly.

[Filo]

So what happened to my post asking if racism was allowed on the forum these days?

Who removed it and why?

Did you quote Selby's post which was removed? That might be why.

Selby, I know you think you're always being clever winding people up, but the right thing to do would be to be a man, hold your hands up and admit you went too far, no? Instead of melting down calling people communists and Nazis because of brexit(?) on a thread that is nothing to do with any of those things.

I think I did quote his post

His comment was racist, pure and simple, and he hasn’t been man enough to apologise for that, instead he goes on a rant lashing out

[ravenrover]

Bit like his beloved leader really

[BobG]

And all the while the Israeli's go on doing what Israeli's do. I think our ignorant pet racist, Selby, and his antedeluvian mindset would fit in very well out there.

And this is a salutary, scary, indeed terrifying list you have shared Wilts.  Look at that list and consider what is happening around us right now. There is only one of those headline items where it would not be possible to make a case that it is happening today.

I think my view on the problems in Israel/Palestine is very clear.

As is my contention that Brexit and the Johnson Vote Leave government have emboldend and legitimised fascism and fascists in the UK. You don't show you are not a fascist by saying you are not a fascist. You show you are not a fascist by not posting or supporting fascist views:

BobG