England/Euros Thread

[RoversAlias]

And there you have it RA wonderful players for their team where they have world class players surrounding them. Does that bring out the best in them or are they just average players made to look better?

Kane plays for Tottenham though, if anything it’s him that makes other Tottenham players look better.
Players like foden, grealish, Kane, mount, are up with the top top players in the premiership.

If they are that good how come the rest of top teams in UK and Europe arren't in a bidding war for them? If Kane goes to Citeh he will score 30+ goals a season with the chances they create but could he do it elsewhere? For me they are top class English players but that doesn't say a great deal compared to world talent JMHO

Why doesn't it? Two of the last three Champions League Finals have been between all English teams.

It isn't the 90s anymore. Italian or Spanish or German football and footballers are not inherently better than English players. Teams and players from this country have proven they are up there with the best for a long time. Be that the last decade, the 2000s or way back to the late 70s and early 80s.

Harry Kane would score an awful lot of goals for City, or Bayern or Real Madrid or Juventus. It's foolish to think otherwise.

[les@donr]

England could learn a thing or two from how Italy play, a high pressing games with plenty of chances to have won by more than 1-0, oh, and with a 2nd string 11.

[ravenrover]

And there you have it RA wonderful players for their team where they have world class players surrounding them. Does that bring out the best in them or are they just average players made to look better?

Kane plays for Tottenham though, if anything it’s him that makes other Tottenham players look better.
Players like foden, grealish, Kane, mount, are up with the top top players in the premiership.

If they are that good how come the rest of top teams in UK and Europe arren't in a bidding war for them? If Kane goes to Citeh he will score 30+ goals a season with the chances they create but could he do it elsewhere? For me they are top class English players but that doesn't say a great deal compared to world talent JMHO

Why doesn't it? Two of the last three Champions League Finals have been between all English teams.

It isn't the 90s anymore. Italian or Spanish or German football and footballers are not inherently better than English players. Teams and players from this country have proven they are up there with the best for a long time. Be that the last decade, the 2000s or way back to the late 70s and early 80s.

Harry Kane would score an awful lot of goals for City, or Bayern or Real Madrid or Juventus. It's foolish to think otherwise.

How many English players actually played in those "English" teams
Lets put it another way how many English players would be picked in a world team or even a 2nd or 3rd choice world team?
Regarding top teams where are teams in the Premier League looking ti buy their new recruits from the same foreign teams who you are now saying aren't as good, lets face it we are now looking at Portuguese players to buy rather than home grown
I agree Kane would score a lot if goals given the players that top teams have but I don't see the likes of PSG Real Madrid Barcelona Juventus etc queueing up to buy tbe "top" English players
And as for using Messi as an example by a previous poster who in the world could afford to buy him and who would be prepared to pay the wages when he was at his peak?

[GazLaz]

England’s issue isn’t the players, it’s the manager.

[RugbyRover]

I look at the players we have available for England and think what would Terry Venables have done with all that talent....

[Filo]

Gilmour of Scotland tests positive for covid, I wonder if this has implications for the England squad?

[dickos1]

And there you have it RA wonderful players for their team where they have world class players surrounding them. Does that bring out the best in them or are they just average players made to look better?

Kane plays for Tottenham though, if anything it’s him that makes other Tottenham players look better.
Players like foden, grealish, Kane, mount, are up with the top top players in the premiership.

If they are that good how come the rest of top teams in UK and Europe arren't in a bidding war for them? If Kane goes to Citeh he will score 30+ goals a season with the chances they create but could he do it elsewhere? For me they are top class English players but that doesn't say a great deal compared to world talent JMHO

Why doesn't it? Two of the last three Champions League Finals have been between all English teams.

It isn't the 90s anymore. Italian or Spanish or German football and footballers are not inherently better than English players. Teams and players from this country have proven they are up there with the best for a long time. Be that the last decade, the 2000s or way back to the late 70s and early 80s.

Harry Kane would score an awful lot of goals for City, or Bayern or Real Madrid or Juventus. It's foolish to think otherwise.

How many English players actually played in those "English" teams
Lets put it another way how many English players would be picked in a world team or even a 2nd or 3rd choice world team?
Regarding top teams where are teams in the Premier League looking ti buy their new recruits from the same foreign teams who you are now saying aren't as good, lets face it we are now looking at Portuguese players to buy rather than home grown
I agree Kane would score a lot if goals given the players that top teams have but I don't see the likes of PSG Real Madrid Barcelona Juventus etc queueing up to buy tbe "top" English players
And as for using Messi as an example by a previous poster who in the world could afford to buy him and who would be prepared to pay the wages when he was at his peak?

That’s my point about foden though, just because nobody is putting bids in for him doesn’t mean he isn’t very good.
As for Kane only PSG could afford him out of those sides,

[Jonathan]

When we say how many English players have played in the teams that recently progressed to Champions League finals, off the top of my head I’m thinking:

Trippier
Walker
Alexander Arnold
James
Chilwell
Stones
Dier (can’t get in the squad any more)
Winks
Henderson
Mount
Foden
Sterling
Kane

All of the above are or were regulars with their clubs when they had Champions League successes. Perhaps time we let go of the notion that English players aren’t getting a look in for the big clubs or in the big competitions.

[Redandwhite]

Sick of the England team . f**king pricks the lot of em .

Bunch of individuals playing for themselves .

Saw a video of grealish and Henderson effectively bullying foden.  Arseholes like that are the reason England ALWAYS fail, rifts in the camp and there always has been .

Until a decent manager can sort that, and get them playing as a team and for each other, then England will always fail .

Excellent individual players .
But a f**king dog shit team .

Watching England is like watching rovers last season . Bunch of individuals who don't care .

[GazLaz]

Sick of the England team . f**king pricks the lot of em .

Bunch of individuals playing for themselves .

Saw a video of grealish and Henderson effectively bullying foden.  Arseholes like that are the reason England ALWAYS fail, rifts in the camp and there always has been .

Until a decent manager can sort that, and get them playing as a team and for each other, then England will always fail .

Excellent individual players .
But a f**king dog shit team .

Watching England is like watching rovers last season . Bunch of individuals who don't care .

There’s a lot of content to that post, I’m not sure one word of it is actually true though.

[Redandwhite]

Sick of the England team . f**king pricks the lot of em .

Bunch of individuals playing for themselves .

Saw a video of grealish and Henderson effectively bullying foden.  Arseholes like that are the reason England ALWAYS fail, rifts in the camp and there always has been .

Until a decent manager can sort that, and get them playing as a team and for each other, then England will always fail .

Excellent individual players .
But a f**king dog shit team .

Watching England is like watching rovers last season . Bunch of individuals who don't care .

There’s a lot of content to that post, I’m not sure one word of it is actually true though.

Go on then, elaborate clever Kitson .

[VivaRovers]

I look at the players we have available for England and think what would Terry Venables have done with all that talent....

Given Venables regularly ignored talents like Ian Wright and Matt Le Tissier in favour of more prosaic players there's a strong argument to say he wouldn't have selected half of them

[dickos1]

Sick of the England team . f**king pricks the lot of em .

Bunch of individuals playing for themselves .

Saw a video of grealish and Henderson effectively bullying foden.  Arseholes like that are the reason England ALWAYS fail, rifts in the camp and there always has been .

Until a decent manager can sort that, and get them playing as a team and for each other, then England will always fail .

Excellent individual players .
But a f**king dog shit team .

Watching England is like watching rovers last season . Bunch of individuals who don't care .

They weren’t bullying him Jesus,
Stuff like that happens every minute of everyday at a football club on the training ground

[ravenrover]

When we say how many English players have played in the teams that recently progressed to Champions League finals, off the top of my head I’m thinking:

Trippier
Walker
Alexander Arnold
James
Chilwell
Stones
Dier (can’t get in the squad any more)
Winks
Henderson
Mount
Foden
Sterling
Kane

All of the above are or were regulars with their clubs when they had Champions League successes. Perhaps time we let go of the notion that English players aren’t getting a look in for the big clubs or in the big competitions.

So Liverpool twice, Spurs, Citeh and Chelsea 55 players + subs and we come up with 13 , 4 of which are full backs out of those 13 I ask again how many would the better teams in Europe would be interested in signing?

[RugbyRover]

I look at the players we have available for England and think what would Terry Venables have done with all that talent....

Given Venables regularly ignored talents like Ian Wright and Matt Le Tissier in favour of more prosaic players there's a strong argument to say he wouldn't have selected half of them

If I had to choose between Shearer, Sheringham, Wright or Le Tiss then I know which 2 I'd go for.
 

[Jonathan]

When we say how many English players have played in the teams that recently progressed to Champions League finals, off the top of my head I’m thinking:

Trippier
Walker
Alexander Arnold
James
Chilwell
Stones
Dier (can’t get in the squad any more)
Winks
Henderson
Mount
Foden
Sterling
Kane

All of the above are or were regulars with their clubs when they had Champions League successes. Perhaps time we let go of the notion that English players aren’t getting a look in for the big clubs or in the big competitions.

So Liverpool twice, Spurs, Citeh and Chelsea 55 players + subs and we come up with 13 , 4 of which are full backs out of those 13 I ask again how many would the better teams in Europe would be interested in signing?

I’d say all of them with the exception of Winks and Dier. Maybe Walker getting on a bit now and James not quite at the level of the others so that reduces your full back numbers.

Obviously with the above we’re not counting our players that have progressed through the Europa League, too.

[Draytonian III]

Just watched Portugal v Germany first half. I hope England team are watching how to move forward with the ball and create chances.

Same re France v Germany, haven't seen such pacy counter attack since Nathan Tyson assisted Kyle Bennett when we broke form a corner against a team I can't remember!

It's a balancing act re our midfield. Lots of options, pressure on Southgate to get it right.

Blackpool

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've given my piece on this topic several times and I've seen little from the first two England matches to change my opinion.

My take is that the English system has for some time now produced players who can be very, very good when they are honed into a specific club system. Managers can, in club scenarios, hammer into the players' heads what their role is. They are cogs in very well designed and crafted machines.

But national tournaments require very different skill sets. They demand an adaptibility of the players to rapidly changing scenarios. They require layers to quickly fit into unfamiliar roles, with unfamiliar team mates.

Some countries seem to produce players who do that instinctively. Germany, Italy, France all regularly produce national sides that become more than the sum of their parts. We regularly look even as much as the sum of the individual parts.

To blame the managers for this failing is facile. We have had some of the very best mangers of their generations not be able to solve this problem. But the older I get, the more I'm becoming certain that that is where the problem is. We generally produce players who are very, very good in a specific and well regimented role, but we don't produce players with the mental agility to deal with the unique and demanding conditions of tournaments.

I might be wrong this time, but the laboured performances against two very, very ordinary sides so far doesn't give any reason to suspect that this will be very different.

[drfchound]

Mason Mount and Ben Chilwell tested positive for COVID and out of our game tomorrow as well as Billy Gilmour for Scotland.

[Filo]

Mason Mount and Ben Chilwell tested positive for COVID and out of our game tomorrow as well as Billy Gilmour for Scotland.

They haven’t tested positive, they are isolating after giving Gilmour a hug after the game

[dickos1]

They’ve both tested negative, but they’re making them isolate
Which is ridiculous

[dickos1]

Mason Mount and Ben Chilwell tested positive for COVID and out of our game tomorrow as well as Billy Gilmour for Scotland.

They haven’t tested positive, they are isolating after giving Gilmour a hug after the game

Funnily enough none of the Scottish players who were hugging and kissing him haven’t been made to isolate

[drfchound]

Mason Mount and Ben Chilwell tested positive for COVID and out of our game tomorrow as well as Billy Gilmour for Scotland.

They haven’t tested positive, they are isolating after giving Gilmour a hug after the game

Ah, I just caught the end of the bbc news and thought they had tested positive.
If it is just because of giving Gilmour a hug I wonder why other Scots haven’t been told to isolate because they were all over him at the end of the game.

[sedwardsdrfc]

Silly if it's only England following a crazy high bar on the covid protection. If they test negative just get on with it.

Mount was probably going to be rested anyway and Chilwell can't get in so maybe not much of an impact to whatever team Southgate has dreamed up this time.

[Spud]

I think they're only isolating from the rest of the England squad as it stands atm. Surely they can't miss out on any potential involvement in the Czech game while the Scotlsnd squad carry on as normal, ludicrous if so.

[sedwardsdrfc]

Back to England and the quality/adaptability of players. I really don't think that is the issue. Look at all these players at their clubs they play lot's of positions in different formations/styles. Some play in teams with a high press others in counter attacking teams. 

All these players wouldn't play for the clubs they do if they weren't 1. very good 2. pretty adaptable and tactically savvy.

About 10? years ago when the Gerrard/Lampard generation were on there way out we were so poor technically you could genuinely say other nations created better player. Now it's really not the case. The manager is just a bit negative and our big players (Kane) for some reason get a bit leggy come a tournament. That's potentially a mental thing getting too weighed down by how big it is. Other nations just deal with it better for some reason

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sedwards.

My point was that the players we are talking about have weeks and months and years to be honed into specific roles at their clubs, where they know intimately both their own role and the overall team style.

Then they are asked to squeeze into an unfamiliar formation or playing style, with unfamiliar teammates.

I'm not doubting the players' ability to be as good as anyone in the world when they are moulded into a team over time. I'm questioning their ability to adapt when in unfamiliar circumstances.

Ask yourself. When was the last time you saw England play a tournament and consistently look as much as the sum of its parts?

I'm genuinely struggling to think. 1996 perhaps? 1982?

[dickos1]

Euro 96 we weren’t very good really
Drew with a v poor Swiss side
Beat Scotland but didn’t play well and they missed a pen at 1-0.
Played very well in the 2nd half v Holland
Poor against a very average Spain in the quarters won on pens
Played well against the Germans but lost on pens

[drfchound]

We had the best ever England football song though in 96.

[Chris Black come back]

1990 we did.