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Author Topic: Batley & Spen Byelection  (Read 4304 times)

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GazLaz

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #60 on June 29, 2021, 01:07:12 pm by GazLaz »
Gaz.
No I haven't. Who is he?

His dad was the chairman of the communist party of GB.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpal_Brar

He knocked on my door canvassing for the Workers Party at the weekend. Very strong links between the two parties.




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albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #61 on June 29, 2021, 01:22:30 pm by albie »
Albie.
Galloway is gallivanting around trying to drag the Muslim vote off Labour by painting Starmer as a crazed Zionist. How the hell is that him "operat(ing) in the space created by the absence of viable opposition policies."

But I'm glad to see you condemning him. I've seen plenty of people on the Labour left sticking the boot into Leadbetter and never saying a word about that t**t.

BST,

In the leadership election, Starmer was emphatic in his position as a Zionist, and a supporter of Israel.
He said so clearly (as did others), and in doing so closed the door on many Muslim voters in seats like Batley, because they see this as a betrayal.

When you need to hold the support of minority communities, this was a deeply stupid move in terms of a political strategy. He can't see that, because he has no political awareness of consequences.

All Galloway is doing is stepping into that void....the space was provided by Labour, by the error of Israeli support, and then by the policy free campaign.

Leadbetter is trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea.....toxic attacks from the right, and a lame duck party machine and leader. She deserves praise for sticking at it.

What is the answer to my question on Mandelson and Campbell?
Speak up, Lad...the silence is giving me tinnitus!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #62 on June 29, 2021, 01:23:01 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Gaz.
No I haven't. Who is he?

His dad was the chairman of the communist party of GB.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpal_Brar

He knocked on my door canvassing for the Workers Party at the weekend. Very strong links between the two parties.



That makes sense. The CPGBMLnis one of those organisation that's gone so far left it's actually far right. Just like Galloway who supports it.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #63 on June 29, 2021, 01:24:23 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Albie.
You are misquoting Starmer. He said he was a Zionist in as much as it meant Israel has a right to exist.

That is deliberately misrepresented by the Left as being uncritical of Israel.

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #64 on June 29, 2021, 02:08:55 pm by albie »
BST,

"I support Zionism without qualification" - those are the words of the UK Labour Party leader, Keir Starmer.

Now you and I can throw different interpretations about what he meant by it, but the bottom line is how it was heard by those he needs to vote Labour.

Stop this fart arsing about, you know as well as I do that the whole political campaign from Labour is a shitshow, but you won't say it because it looks bad after cheerleading for it for ages.

Fess up and accept some responsibility.
Start off by telling us what you think about Mandelson and Campbell pulling the strings......or are you waiting until after Thursday, keeping the powder dry?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #65 on June 29, 2021, 03:42:18 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Albie.
Read the entire quote..
While declining to refer to himself as a Zionist, he said: “I do support Zionism. I said that last night. I absolutely support the right of Israel to exist as a homeland.”

“My only concern is that Zionism can mean slightly different things to different people, and as Lisa [Nandy] said, to some extent it has been weaponised. I wouldn’t read too much into that. I said it loud and clear – and meant it – that I support Zionism without qualification.”


Cack handed in terms of not realising how that would be weaponised, but that's a lesser crime than the so called Labour supporters who are doing the weaponising.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #66 on June 29, 2021, 04:08:00 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Albie.
Do I want Campbell and Mandelson running a Labour campaign? No of course I don't.

But these situations don't just come out of thin air. Two years ago, you had the people YOU wanted running the Labour party and we were at 18% in the polls.

18 months ago, I was out canvassing for a Labour Govt in the most chaotically w**k campaign ever, with new spending pledges being thought up on the hoof and people on the doorstep saying we had zero credibility.

I campaigned then because for all its mess, a Corbyn Govt would have been far better than a Johnson one.

Now we are in s situation where the Left are actively rooting for a Tory to defeat a Labour candidate on Thursday. So don't give me any lectures on who to support. I'd take a Mandelson influenced Labour Govt over any Govt of the current Tory party. I don't believe the same applies to you.

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #67 on June 29, 2021, 04:52:40 pm by albie »
Thanks for the clarification on Campbell and Mandelson.

You can't say the Left are in favour of Galloway, some people might be, but most that I know on the left wish Leadbeater well. It is not helpful to tar everyone with the same brush, and most of those who will support Galloway at the polls are NOT from the left.

I would prefer any Labour government to Johnson, but my point is that the present strategy is failing disastrously, and those responsible for it need to man up and accept their role in that failure.

On the matter of zero credibility, I would suggest the situation is getting worse by the week, and Labour will lose votes in ethnic minority communities, former red wall disillusioned voters, and young voters in cities will move greenwards.

It is the perfect storm for collapse, all set against the most corrupt Tory administration in history.
Not good at all!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #68 on June 29, 2021, 06:03:35 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Hang on Albie. You were telling me Galloway operates in the space Labour has opened on the left.

wilts rover

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #69 on June 29, 2021, 09:24:23 pm by wilts rover »
George Galloway told people to vote for the Brexit Party in 2019 and Tory in the recent Scottish elections. Why anyone with even brief access to the internet even thinks this self-serving charlatan self-publicist has any shred of 'left-wing' credentials is deluding themselves.

Like those ex-members of the RCPGB who now work in Johnson's government (or were put in the HoL by him) all he is interested in is making profit from chaos and disruption.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #70 on June 29, 2021, 09:58:23 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
And yet Wilts.

Have you ever seen a word of criticism of Galloway in this campaign from the Momentum opinion formers like Bastani?

wilts rover

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #71 on June 29, 2021, 10:10:47 pm by wilts rover »
Didn't Owen Jones do something on him at the weekend on his video thing? Or maybe these people could help:

https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1405123498079629317

https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1405501639671357443

https://twitter.com/YoungLabourUK/status/1409136555848044548

If Starmer's Labour is unable to motivate people - that's down to him and the people he put around him. Not the people who feel let down and unmotivated.


BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #72 on June 29, 2021, 10:21:31 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Not sure what you are posting there Wilts. None of them mention Galloway.


BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #74 on June 30, 2021, 12:19:07 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Strange.

The complaints from Lab members are that Starmer is too far to the right. Yet Burnham was the very image of New Labour.

Ldr

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #75 on June 30, 2021, 12:24:50 pm by Ldr »
Do members know what they want anymore mate?

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #76 on June 30, 2021, 01:20:11 pm by albie »
Burnham is not an MP, so is not eligible.

The Starmer quote  I posted is  from the leadership hustings. It was in the public domain before the quote BST mentions.

Hang on Albie. You were telling me Galloway operates in the space Labour has opened on the left.

Galloway looks to harvest votes in the gaps between other candidates.
If there is no left candidate, he will pitch to that audience.....just the same in terms of right wing memes.

There is no consistency in his position, it is simply a calculation of where available votes are to be found.

Labour could have closed down some of these opportunities, but have chosen to adopt a policy free campaign. Voting Labour to keep out a Tory is simply not good enough any more for many.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #77 on June 30, 2021, 03:00:17 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Albie.
Wrong
The FULL quote I gave was the one from the hustings. Bottom of this article
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/keir-starmer-elected-labour-leader-i-will-tear-out-poison-of-antisemitism/

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #78 on June 30, 2021, 05:00:43 pm by albie »
BST,

Wrong
That quote is from AFTER the hustings, not from the hustings...the article says that.

At the end of the day, it is splitting hairs.
Starmer said he supports Zionism without qualification, and in doing so lost much of the muslim vote.
This is a serious avoidable mistake.

You were on here saying that Corbyn was over concerned with foreign policy issues.
Now I lived in W Yorks for a while, and canvassed some of the areas like Batley.
I can tell you that concern for Palestine was a big issue then, and that was some years ago.

The point remains that you do not antagonise folk you want to vote for you, and if Starmer cannot see that he needs to give his head a wobble.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #79 on June 30, 2021, 05:30:03 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BST,

Wrong
That quote is from AFTER the hustings, not from the hustings...the article says that.

At the end of the day, it is splitting hairs.
Starmer said he supports Zionism without qualification, and in doing so lost much of the muslim vote.
This is a serious avoidable mistake.

You were on here saying that Corbyn was over concerned with foreign policy issues.
Now I lived in W Yorks for a while, and canvassed some of the areas like Batley.
I can tell you that concern for Palestine was a big issue then, and that was some years ago.

The point remains that you do not antagonise folk you want to vote for you, and if Starmer cannot see that he needs to give his head a wobble.

Have you got the full quote from the hustings themselves? I haven't seen it anywhere. It is crystal clear in that quote in the Jewish News tat he is talking about the right of Israel to exist. Why people on the left would broadcast that as "Starmer is a Zionist" with all the toxic connotations of that word is anyone's guess.

Then there is context, which the Corbynites never like to address of course, but here it is. Labour were hammered in 2019 by the perception of anti-Semitism, which Corbyn allowed to grow by his refusal to kill the subject. I personally know four lifeling Labour voters who refused to vote Labour in 2019 because (rightly or wrongly) they thought Labour was institutionally anti-Semitic. That issues needed flattening once and for all (although Rayner re-twitting an anti-Semitic post and Corbyn refusing to accept the crticisms of the internal report shortly after Starmer took over were hardly designed to put the matter to bed). That is the context in which he made that comment. I agree that it is cack handed and gives bullets to his enemies. I just wouldn't have expected those enemies to be in his own party, bt there you go.

Finally, I never said Corbyn was "over concerned" about foreign policy. Foreign policy is vitally important. What I didn't like about Corbyn was his simplistic approach that led him to prioritise the stance of Russia over the stance of his own country. Time and time and time again. I never heard one word from Corbyn of unqualified condemnation of Russian actions when he was Labour leader. He was arguing their case on Salisbury and on chlorine gas attacks on Syria. And he toed the Seamus Milne line that the barrel bombing that flattened Aleppo must never be criticised because it would "take away attention from the bigger crimes of Britain."

That is the Labour party that Starmer inherited.

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #80 on June 30, 2021, 05:39:25 pm by albie »
The original quote from April 4 seems to have been retrospectively edited, although it is widely referenced in other publications.

This is unsurprising given the nature of the comments. Starmer was not alone in this, all the candidates did similar.
The Jewish News is not a reliable publication for accuracy by the way.

Russia is nothing to the point here...we are talking about Muslim voters, and their liklihood of voting Labour.
The party has made it much less likely to hold their support, and if you then factor in loss of support along red wall lines you are in a difficult place.

I hope Labour hold the seat, but I think Leadbeater has been dealt a poor hand by the Party, and that could have been averted. Too many mis-steps!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #81 on June 30, 2021, 05:52:10 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Where is your evidence that there has been retrospective editing?

The Times of Israel reported it the same.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/keir-starmer-elected-uk-labour-chief-apologizes-to-jews-for-party-anti-semitism/

They also quote another newspaper's reporting:

He also told the Jewish Chronicle: “If the definition of ‘Zionist’ is someone who believes in the state of Israel, in that sense I’m a Zionist.”

It is clear with a tiny bit of research that Starmer meant "supporting the right of Israel to exist" when he said he was Zionist. But predictably, elements of the Left are weaponising that quote for their own ends.

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #82 on June 30, 2021, 06:05:51 pm by albie »
BST,

Jewish lobby news sources are selective in content.
Retrospective editing happens all the time, including in mainstream media, but usually a correction is acknowledged.

The original is referenced in many other publications, as I said above. It was in the April 4 edition of the link you put.

Once again, a deflection tactic.
Talk to the subject, which is the Labour campaign in Batley and Spen.

I take it you think it has been a model of success...let's see on Thursday!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #83 on June 30, 2021, 06:33:09 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Can you ping me a link to one of the publications that have the "original" quote?

albie

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #84 on June 30, 2021, 06:51:27 pm by albie »
It will not help if the link through is to an article which has been amended.
But feel free to check for yourself.

More relevant to Batley and Spen is this piece from Peter Oborne;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-batley-spen-by-election-labour-muslims-blaming

Depressing, and unhelpful to rebuilding relationships harmed by the first mis-steps.

wesisback

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #85 on June 30, 2021, 07:49:18 pm by wesisback »
The news today that whats left of the members would back Yvette Cooper to replace Starmer when they lose Batley on Friday according to a poll, an MP who is almost certainly being ousted from her position in Pontefract at the next election. Stunning.

scawsby steve

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #86 on June 30, 2021, 07:58:18 pm by scawsby steve »
The news today that whats left of the members would back Yvette Cooper to replace Starmer when they lose Batley on Friday according to a poll, an MP who is almost certainly being ousted from her position in Pontefract at the next election. Stunning.

Another pro-EU MP as well, Wes. Unbelievable.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #87 on June 30, 2021, 08:05:29 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
It will not help if the link through is to an article which has been amended.
But feel free to check for yourself.

More relevant to Batley and Spen is this piece from Peter Oborne;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uk-batley-spen-by-election-labour-muslims-blaming

Depressing, and unhelpful to rebuilding relationships harmed by the first mis-steps.

I'm not following. Was that a "No" to my request for a link?

Not Now Kato

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #88 on June 30, 2021, 08:07:46 pm by Not Now Kato »
The news today that whats left of the members would back Yvette Cooper to replace Starmer when they lose Batley on Friday according to a poll, an MP who is almost certainly being ousted from her position in Pontefract at the next election. Stunning.

The people of this country get the government they deserve.

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Batley & Spen Byelection
« Reply #89 on June 30, 2021, 10:27:07 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
As much as kier starmer is struggling to pick up votes with labour I think he's getting a lot of unfair criticsm.  The laughable point is those saying Burnham would be a better leader, far from it.

Having said that, labour could put some policies out there and create an identity.  He may well be  the right leader but at the wrong time in some ways.

 

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