Starmer descending into worrying authoritarian language

[tyke1962]

The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .

The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .

It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .

What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .

It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .

I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .

My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .

tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.

Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?

Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?

Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .

The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .

Well done for becoming part of the problem .

[Filo]

The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .

The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .

It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .

What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .

It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .

I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .

My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .

tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.

Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?

Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?

Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .

The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .

Well done for becoming part of the problem .

The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!

[tyke1962]

The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .

The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .

It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .

What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .

It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .

I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .

My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .

tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.

Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?

Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?

Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .

The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .

Well done for becoming part of the problem .

The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!

Culturally to the right and economically to the left I'll give you that .

There's no law against that either as far as I can see .

I'll await the usual racist and  bigot retorts which is the general hiding place of the standard Labour luvvies .

[Filo]

The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .

The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .

It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .

What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .

It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .

I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .

My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .

tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.

Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?

Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?

Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .

The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .

Well done for becoming part of the problem .

The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!

Culturally to the right and economically to the left I'll give you that .

There's no law against that either as far as I can see .

I'll await the usual racist and  bigot retorts which is the general hiding place of the standard Labour luvvies .

That first sentence typifies your stance, you can’t have both, maybe a centrist Govt is the one for you, even after false ultra left leaning posts, you are a fraud

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.

People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.

Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.

The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.

And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).

That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.


[1] Nationalist culturally  and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together. 

[tyke1962]

Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.

People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.

Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.

The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.

And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).

That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.


[1] Nationalist culturally  and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.

It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .

The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .

Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .

Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .

Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .

It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .

So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You just don't get it do you?

3 out of 4 Labour voters in 2017 had voted Remain the year before. That is broadly how people on the left now line up. 3/4s are socially progressive. 1/4 are socially reactionary.

The reason why 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave is NOT because most people on the Left are insular nationalists like you.

It's because a small number of left wing insular nationalists, like you, implicitly made a pact with the far bigger number of right wing insular nationalists.

In simple terms, yes 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave. But in very, very few if any of them did a majority of Labour voters vote Leave. That seems to be the bit you're struggling to deal with.

So the constituencies votedeave because you and the far right teamed up. You were just doing it implicitly then, because you had a beautiful dream of a Bennite Brexit, and were oblivious to the fact that you were actually voting for a far right Brexit.

But now you know. You know what the Johnson game is. What country he wants us to be. And still you are taking a stance that enables him. Which leaves me thinking that you are explicitly enabling him now. Because you are too smart not to realise what you have done and continue to do. So you certainly aren't enabling Johnson by accident. You're choosing to do so.

[Filo]

Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.

People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.

Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.

The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.

And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).

That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.


[1] Nationalist culturally  and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.

It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .

The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .

Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .

Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .

Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .

It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .

So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .

Thats what they thought in 1930’s Germany

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You just don't get it do you?

3 out of 4 Labour voters in 2017 had voted Remain the year before. That is broadly how people on the left now line up. 3/4s are socially progressive. 1/4 are socially reactionary.

The reason why 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave is NOT because most people on the Left are insular nationalists like you.

It's because a small number of left wing insular nationalists, like you, implicitly made a pact with the far bigger number of right wing insular nationalists.

In simple terms, yes 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave. But in very, very few if any of them did a majority of Labour voters vote Leave. That seems to be the bit you're struggling to deal with.

So the constituencies votedeave because you and the far right teamed up. You were just doing it implicitly then, because you had a beautiful dream of a Bennite Brexit, and were oblivious to the fact that you were actually voting for a far right Brexit.

But now you know. You know what the Johnson game is. What country he wants us to be. And still you are taking a stance that enables him. Which leaves me thinking that you are explicitly enabling him now. Because you are too smart not to realise what you have done and continue to do. So you certainly aren't enabling Johnson by accident. You're choosing to do so.

You can pull whatever you want out of a hat that reconciles your view Billy but I prefer to stick to the harsh reality also known as facts .

The facts are that Labour lost voters in extremely massive numbers in solid areas that were previously a shoe in .

They lost those votes because the party no longer connects with those voters and hasn't done for two decades .

Losing the red wall is like the Tories losing Torbay or Bromley .

Have you any idea of the scale of the Labour problem in the post industrial towns ?

No you expect these areas to dance to the tune that was played over 13 years of government and a return to that particular flavour of Labour policy .

It ain't going to happen fella .

The former red wall couldn't give a feck about Starmer because he offers nowt that they haven't seen before .

The day a second referendum came from Labour was the day they died and dead is dead .

When 60% in Labour held seats vote to leave the EU you'd better believe they want that respected .

The proof is in the pudding , they voted Tory before tick the second referendum option .

Just exactly how much on the ground evidence do you need ?

60% of the former Labour vote was culturally to the right but Starmer and co ignored that particular fact .

And it is a fact but dress that up how you want for what good it will do you .

The Red wall didn't desert Labour rather more than Labour deserted them .

You people are so arrogant and up your own ass it's not true .

No they won't be signing up to Starmer because it's the same old same old .

[tyke1962]

Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.

People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.

Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.

The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.

And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).

That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.


[1] Nationalist culturally  and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.

It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .

The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .

Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .

Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .

Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .

It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .

So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .

Thats what they thought in 1930’s Germany

A bit flawed given it's the UK and not 1933 .

The truth is the country isn't voting the way you'd like .

Hmmm because you are the minority .

[wilts rover]

Economically to the left and culturally to the right - that is literally Kier Starmer's Labour Party!

Despite the press headlines and spin, the Johnson government is economically to the right (this taxpayers money that is supposed to have gone to 'the regions' has actually gone/going to tax doding multi-nationals' and socially to the far-right.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Stop ranting. Read what I said.

You are making a basic logic error.

The fact that 60% of Lab constituencies voted Leave does not mean that 60% of Labour voters voted Leave.

While ever you are making that mistake, you are going to fail to draw the correct conclusions.

Opinion poll after opinion poll have shown that 3/4s or so of Labour voters supported Remain. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Stop ranting. Read what I said.

You are making a basic logic error.

The fact that 60% of Lab constituencies voted Leave does not mean that 60% of Labour voters voted Leave.

While ever you are making that mistake, you are going to fail to draw the correct conclusions.

Opinion poll after opinion poll have shown that 3/4s or so of Labour voters supported Remain. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is.

I thought you'd more oil in your lamp than opinion polls Billy but there you are .

60% of Labour held seats voted to leave the EU but that's not a true reflection of the Labour vote is a remarkable claim .

So presumably 40% is ? .

70% of Tory held seats voted to leave the EU also , presumably that's not a true reflection either ?

Perhaps the 52% was a minority vote too in the referendum ?

So 60% of Labour held seats and 70% of Tory ones voted to leave and Starmer goes with his second referendum policy .

You not think in all honesty that's not flawed and stinks of playing to the gallery his heart sits ? .

Mandelson might think it's 1997 but the truth is the electorate aren't buying it .

Including yourself .

[tyke1962]

Economically to the left and culturally to the right - that is literally Kier Starmer's Labour Party!

Despite the press headlines and spin, the Johnson government is economically to the right (this taxpayers money that is supposed to have gone to 'the regions' has actually gone/going to tax doding multi-nationals' and socially to the far-right.

Never mind about Johnson show me evidence that Labour is economically to the left and culturally to the right please ?

Starmer dare not even state the energy companies should be back in public ownership despite the fact loads of em are falling quicker than Barnsley and Rovers .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke. At the risk of being accused of playing the man, you are talking pure nonsense and frankly, it's pointless talking with you if you won't accept basic premises.

I'll say it one last time to see if it sinks in. 60% of Labour constituencies voting Leave is not the same as 60% of Labour voters voting Leave.

Until you get that, it's pointless talking to you.

[tyke1962]

Tyke. At the risk of being accused of playing the man, you are talking pure nonsense and frankly, it's pointless talking with you if you won't accept basic premises.

I'll say it one last time to see if it sinks in. 60% of Labour constituencies voting Leave is not the same as 60% of Labour voters voting Leave.

Until you get that, it's pointless talking to you.

Billy you are making a fundamental mistake in trying to reconcile a two way referendum vote with the electoral system in this country .

If 73% of my town voted to leave the EU which they did and the local MP is a solid remainer which he was then that's surely a huge problem .

That is fairly typical of where the red wall was give or take in 2016 .

Don't forget we lost Dennis Skinner to this who was as anti EU as they come .

You simply can't brush this shyte under the carpet .

The facts are that the Labour Party may well be pro EU but the electorate in the numbers they need to win a GE aren't .

That's a solid fact and whilst you may come up with what ever figures you want to prove the point the fact is it doesn't convert to political capital .

The majority of this country is culturally to the right irrespective of which party they choose to vote for in the system we have here .

I've seen no solid evidence that Labour want to change the political system we have here so you live or die on that hill .

I've seen no evidence either that they want to form pacts with the other pro EU parties to defeat the Tories .

So if the support you claim the Labour Party has is real then why aren't their doing your so called majority a favour and sticking to their beliefs .

I wouldn't have thought the Libs , Greens and SNP at  price are miles apart in such an issue .

If you have the numbers back it up Billy .

Or have you ?

[albie]

The Starmer shitshow continues, with the latest that now "Labour has suspended Angela Rayner’s head of communications in an escalation of hostilities between her and Sir Keir Starmer".

Reported in The Sunday Times, but paywalled.

Not content with unlawful expulsions, exodus of members, loss of union financial support, and the threat of bankruptcy, Keith has got his foot down on the destruction pedal.

The real question for Labour is how Starmer thinks he will be able to run an election campaign of any sort, without money or people to campaign.

End days these, for effective opposition.

[SydneyRover]

As DRFC is showing Albie, when a previous manager leaves one in deep shit it take a massive effort to pull oneself out.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

What do you think they should do with someone who has allegedly broken confidentiality in briefing journalists?

[albie]

BST,

I would expect due process to be followed, wouldn't you?

I would not expect that an allegation (which has been denied) to pass into the public domain via the press.
The person suspended found out about it from the Sunday Times.

Lawyers and the Union for that person point out that Starmer has committed exactly the same misdemour that the suspension was for.
Expect further fall-out.

Looking at the bigger picture, it is another example of action taken without thinking through consequences.
Precisely the sort of error that has put the party in jeopardy of insolvency.

Remember this comes after the massive data breach, still to be resolved.
It is called maladministration.

[SydneyRover]

And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?

Albie someone has to get a grip.

[tyke1962]

Unite have announced they are withdrawing extra funding to the Labour Party although they will still pay the million quid affiliation fee .

Personally I wouldn't even bother with the affiliation either .

[tyke1962]

And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?

Albie someone has to get a grip.

The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .

It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .

[SydneyRover]

And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?

Albie someone has to get a grip.

The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .

It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .

I guess one has to look at the order of things, which came first and how the former affected the latter.

[tyke1962]

And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?

Albie someone has to get a grip.

The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .

It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .

I guess one has to look at the order of things, which came first and how the former affected the latter.

Well the fact is a centrist Labour government pre brexit lost two elections no matter how you want to dress it up .

[SydneyRover]

But no one has lost an election like the left headed by Corbyn Tyke, which has threatened the foundations of the whole left movement and allowed a far right wing government to break the law, abandon human rights, discard the UN convention for refugees.

[tyke1962]

But no one has lost an election like the left headed by Corbyn Tyke, which has threatened the foundations of the whole left movement and allowed a far right wing government to break the law, abandon human rights, discard the UN convention for refugees.

You know as well as I do why Corbyn was rinsed in 2019 Sydney and that's because of Labour's ambiguous brexit position .

For sure he was a weak man with some particularly dodgy past acquaintances which didn't help .

He put the shyte up the few in this country following the 2017 election .

You don't get a campaign like that against the likes of Corbyn without good reason .

Nobody cares about Starmer because he's one of them . the status quo , business as usual .

Starmer doesn't carry the baggage Corbyn did , very little skeletons in the cupboard and it's a travesty he's not pursuing the same policies Corbyn did .

He was happy enough to endorse that narrative to get elected and subsequently renegaded  on every one of em .

Thats unforgivable in my opinion .




 

[SydneyRover]

But only and until the left understands that unless they stand together under the one umbrella over all the centre and left this is only shooting the breeze on a third tier football forum. We have established that the electorate will not accept a party made up of the left of the left, we have established that there aren't enough in that cohort anyway, so the only way forward is for a united front.

All the while the clock ticks and the party that makes the rules for everyone else marches on.

[tyke1962]

But only and until the left understands that unless they stand together under the one umbrella over all the centre and left this is only shooting the breeze on a third tier football forum. We have established that the electorate will not accept a party made up of the left of the left, we have established that there aren't enough in that cohort anyway, so the only way forward is for a united front.

All the while the clock ticks and the party that makes the rules for everyone else marches on.

The left perfectly understands the game Sydney and I don't ever remember Corbyn purging the centre and right of the Labour movement .

The left have demonstrated a willingness to work with the centre and right but that's not replicated the other way and instead they are content to plot against them , Mandelson is on the record .

Starmer was heavily involved under Corbyn and the proof in the pudding .

When it's the other way around suddenly we all have to bury the hatchet and dance to the centre right tune .

Not going to happen as Unite and the Communications Union are proving .

The money will now be put in to campaigns for social justice .

You reap what you sow Sydney .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke
I've always said that Corbyn pulled a brilliant trick in 2017 by convincing Left Leavers and Remainers that he was on their side. So he kept the Left and Centre-Left united.

The trouble always was that the Left totally misinterpreted the meaning of that. They thought it was a resounding vote in support of Corbynism. They ignored the fact that Labour still lost against THE worst campaigning PM of all time. They said the fact that Corbyn added votes to Labour's tally showed that Corbyn was popular (ignoring the fact that May, who could barely put two consecutive cogent words together, also added over 1million votes to the Tory tally). They ignored the fact that UKIP was temporarily sidelined and the votes went home to Lab AND Con in an election where Brexit didn't really matter.

I said at that time that he couldn't possibly pull that trick a second time, because by the time of the next election after 2017, Labour would have had to put its cards on the table and state clearly whether they supported Brexit or not. And when Corbyn finally came out in early 2019 as the Brexit supporter everyone knew he was, the result was a catastrophe. Labour fell from 40% to  20% in the polls in a matter  of months - the sharpest fall in Labour support since the Great Depression.

It is simply ridiculous for people on the Left to blame the defeat in 2019 on Labour finally coming out for Ref2 in Autumn 2019. I sometimes wish that the clearer heads in the Labour party had let Corbyn have the Brexit policy he wanted in the 2019 election and supported Brexit (even though the membership was massively in favour of Ref2). Then at least the Corbynite/Bennite Left would have owned the result which would have left Labour with less than 100 seats. Then they could have been swept into the dustbin of history where they deserve to be, instead of doing what they always do and blaming everyone else.