Gareth Southgate

[PDX_Rover]

Chellini wasn’t a red. The one on Grealish certainly was.

[dickos1]

The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that

Er,  if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.

Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about

It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.

England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.

Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.

Not replying to you specifically but who genuinely has "run the gauntlet" in terms of winning a major tournament? Certainly this milennium? As every tournament gets diluted with average teams it's highly unlikely that we're going to have to beat Holland then Argentina then Spain then Italy to win a WC.

Exactly,
No other nation would take any notice

[RoversAlias]

If beating Germany in the 2nd Round is not a case of beating a top team, I don't know what is. They demolished Portugal in the group stage and have been one of the world's best teams for the entire time this generation of their players has been around.

Nothing easy about our route to this final. Italy on the other hand had a very easy group and an average Austria in the 2nd Round, who they struggled to beat. I expect you'd find similar paths for all recent tournament winners.

[drfchound]

That is very fair RA.
It won’t be good enough for some people though, some of who like to have a pop at our national team.
IMO of course.

[DonnyNoel]

So as I’m sat watching the minutes tick away on my lateral flow test (14 y/o son tested positive this evening) I figured I’d research the victims in the KO stages of the winners of the alternating WC/Euros since 2000:

E2000
France beat Spain, Portugal, Italy

WC2002
Brazil beat Belgium, England, Turkey, Germany

E2004
Greece(!) beat France, Czech Rep and Portugal

WC2006
Italy beat Australia, Ukraine, Germany, France

E2008
Spain beat Italy, Russia, Germany

WC2010
Spain beat Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands

E2012
Spain beat France, Portugal, Italy

WC2014
Germany beat Algeria, France, Brazil, Argentina

E2016
Portugal beat Croatia, Poland, Wales, France

WC2018
France beat Argentina, Uruguay, Belgium, Croatia

E2020(1)
Italy beat Austria, Belgium, Spain, England.


Applying nothing but a bit of opinionated logic to who qualifies as a big nation or was a big nation at a time I still think you only need to beat, on average , 2 major players to win a tournament. Some have definitely beat the lot (although tbf Spain were a freak of nature 2008 – 2012) but it’s not unlikely we could face a similar path to WC glory in 15 months time as we faced in the last few weeks.

Or Iceland dispatch us and normal service is resumed.

[dickos1]

Good post that
If we’d won the shootout yesterday a route of
Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy wouldn’t look out of place with all these other routes

[BillyStubbsTears]

The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that

Er,  if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.

Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about

It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.

England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.

Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.

Not replying to you specifically but who genuinely has "run the gauntlet" in terms of winning a major tournament? Certainly this milennium? As every tournament gets diluted with average teams it's highly unlikely that we're going to have to beat Holland then Argentina then Spain then Italy to win a WC.

How about Italy in this tournament?

They've just faced the world ranked No. 1, 7 and 4 in consecutive matches.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.

One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.

It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.

[dickos1]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

[dickos1]

Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.

One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.

It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.

It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours

[DonnyNoel]

 

Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.

One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.

It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.

Hmmmmmmmm. That's a tough point to debate. Obviously if you offer me the same knockout path we just had in every future  tournament I'll take it. But, you've still got to win them. I'm sure if you offered a French fan Switzerland in the KO stages next tournament he'd take it so I'm not sure about the odds balancing out. I don't think its beyond the realms of possibility we could get an easier draw in Qatar given football outside of Europe is fairly weak atm. It's always possible in knockout football you could have a favourable draw in the quarters of a major tournament and not make the most of it, even David O'Leary knows that 

[Jonathan]

Let’s not forget that if England had faced Spain and Belgium then the Spanish would’ve been toothless and on the slide, and the Belgians injury ravaged and overrated. It’s all relative.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.

One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.

It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.

It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours

Dickos.
I fully agree that Portugal had an easier run. But the fact remains that the winners of 3 of the last 4 tournaments (arguably 6 of the last 7) had much harder routes. Portugal's run was the exception, not the rule. 

[DonnyNoel]

Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.

One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.

It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.

It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours

Dickos.
I fully agree that Portugal had an easier run. But the fact remains that the winners of 3 of the last 4 tournaments (arguably 6 of the last 7) had much harder routes. Portugal's run was the exception, not the rule. 

That last 7 is heavily skewed by Spain winning 3 though. Borderline freakshow like us in 03/04 - perfect players in a perfect system.

[Donnyjim]

What the Chiellini card clearly illustrates is what we new from the start. He can not cope with pace. Sako should have been on from the start pure and simple. At some point then be would been sent off. Southgate got that wrong.

[DonnyOsmond]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

Are you being serious?

[BillyStubbsTears]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

It's a simple question really isn't it?

Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?

[DonnyNoel]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

It's a simple question really isn't it?

Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?

Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.

[BillyStubbsTears]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

It's a simple question really isn't it?

Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?

Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.

Really?

[DonnyNoel]

World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all

It's a simple question really isn't it?

Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?

Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.

Really?

Spain warmed up as the tournament progressed so it's a tough one for me - if we'd have faced them when we faced Germany I think we'd have beaten them. We have the best defence and they needed numerous chances to score. Plus I don't think Denmark were given enough credit.

[RoversAlias]

Belgium's status as long-term world #1 showd you the rankings aren't the measuring stick. I do think you're using them to justify your point BST, in the face of good evidence to the contrary.

Those two routes you've presented - Italy and England's in Euro 2020 - are pretty much the same level of difficulty. Adding in that I would say Italy had an easier group "on paper" than England too.

DN's list shows that you only usually have to beat 2 truly top nations to win it. That 2002 Brazil team was lauded as incredible yet they were lucky to beat us, had to beat a vastly inferior Belgium and were lucky to get Turkey in the semi-finals. But they were still a great team and deserved the trophy at the end of the summer.

[GazLaz]

You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through

We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.

[RedRover45]

You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through

We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.

Yes, but how many have we lost in normal time ?

[GazLaz]

You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through

We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.

Yes, but how many have we lost in normal time ?

Footballs actually about winning in the KO stages, not not losing.

[sha66y]

Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!

I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss

Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows

[i_ateallthepies]

Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!

I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss

Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows

Your first comment is correct, so what makes you think you're a better judge than Southgate of what is the better game strategy?

[dickos1]

You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through

We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.

If you mean favourites because of our bookies then we’re always favourites. We were favourites against Italy.
Every game we play we’re favourites with the English bookies.
Normal time is irrelevant the point is if we qualify or not, if that wasn’t the case then we would’ve shared the euros.
Out of the 7 knock out games mentioned, we’ve qualified in 5 of them.
No other side has managed to reach at least the semis in the last two major tournaments, not to mention the nations league

[sha66y]

Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!

I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss

Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows

Your first comment is correct, so what makes you think you're a better judge than Southgate of what is the better game strategy?

Do you think he chose the right one, even though a lot of press and punditry believe otherwise….
and I don’t think anything….it’s my opinion only, of which I am entitled to have!

If your opinion is that he got it right then we deservedly came second

[dickos1]

Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?

[sha66y]

Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?

That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….

Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,

The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..

Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….