Gareth Southgate

[dickos1]

Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?

That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….

Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,

The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..

Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….

What you seem to be forgetting is that there were two sides playing, and the one we were playing were a very good side.
We didn’t play any different, Italy did.
And so they should they’re 1-0 down in a final with 45 mins to go, of course they going to be pushing for a goal.
If it was the other way around so would we be.

Yes we had a lot of good players on the bench but we can’t play them all, you may not realise but over the last few decades we’ve had managers that have shoehorned all our best players into the starting 11, and all we’ve had is abject failure.
Southgate moulded a team, and the most successful team we’ve had for 55 years.

[sha66y]

I guess your right then……

[DMnumber4]

I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.

What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.

Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.

Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.

On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.

[EasyforDennis]

Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?

That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….

Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,

The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..

Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….

What you seem to be forgetting is that there were two sides playing, and the one we were playing were a very good side.
We didn’t play any different, Italy did.
And so they should they’re 1-0 down in a final with 45 mins to go, of course they going to be pushing for a goal.
If it was the other way around so would we be.

Yes we had a lot of good players on the bench but we can’t play them all, you may not realise but over the last few decades we’ve had managers that have shoehorned all our best players into the starting 11, and all we’ve had is abject failure.
Southgate moulded a team, and the most successful team we’ve had for 55 years.

It depends on how you look at success. He has won exactly the same as every other manager since 1966!! ............Nothing.

[dickos1]

It’s not as black & white as that.
Getting knocked out by Iceland in the first knockout stage of the tournament is not the same as reaching the final and losing on penalties.
That’s progress whichever way you want to look at it

[dickos1]

I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.

What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.

Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.

Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.

On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.

You make some good points, however I don’t agree with the point about rashford and sancho, if you have two players on the bench who are two of the best penalty takers in your squad, of course you would try and get them on for the shootout

[idler]

What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.

[MachoMadness]

Rashford has a brilliant record from the spot, including high-stakes penalties, and Sancho is certainly better than many in the squad, so I would say it was a good idea to get them both on. Southgate did what he could getting them on the pitch, after that it's on them. If Rashford's penalty is 2 inches to the right IMO we win that shootout. Fine margins.

[dickos1]

What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.

Of course we will never know, but if you have two good penalty takers on the bench then of course you’re going to get them on the pitch for the shootout.
I’m sure he’d do exactly the same again

[sha66y]

I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?

[karldew]

What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.

That’s why penalties are the best way to win! But on the flip side the worse way to lose.

[dickos1]

I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?

You’d assume wrong!
They’ve been practising penalties for the last 6 weeks everyday.
Maguire also took one in the last shootout
He was right to choose maguire was he not?

[sha66y]

I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?

You’d assume wrong!
They’ve been practising penalties for the last 6 weeks everyday.
Maguire also took one in the last shootout
He was right to choose maguire was he not?

Yes …but not the 2 that came on,
They were cold and Un-adrenalised, they didn’t have the game running through their blood and they weren’t fatigue hardened…….they just took good penalties in a controlled, sterile situation…… and they both missed, so onwards and hopefully upwards, but I don’t think we have a competition win in us …..

[sedwardsdrfc]

Making subs for the pens was right. Leaving it to a minute before the penalty was wrong IMO. Give them 10-20 min to get into the game. Anyone shoes played will tell you it takes a bit to get into it off the bench and that applies even to pens

[arkseyrover]

I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.

What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.

Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.

Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.

On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.

Absolutely spot on DM. Entirely sums up my own feelings about Southgate and his mis management of the team

[dickos1]

How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament

[sha66y]

How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament

Once again you pick up on the 2 word opinion of a poster “ mis-management”  and give your opinion on those 2 words…
Re read the original post and if you don’t agree with it say why!

[Herbert Anchovy]

Southgate has built a very good team who are extremely hard to beat. The progress he’s made since taking over the role has been fabulous. It’s easy to forget just how poor we were prior to him taking over. Some of the criticism directed at him is just bizarre to say the least. We were beaten in the final on penalties by a side that were unbeaten in 34 games. This England side have time to continue to develop and improve…and they will. This is a great time to follow England.

[dickos1]

How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament

Once again you pick up on the 2 word opinion of a poster “ mis-management”  and give your opinion on those 2 words…
Re read the original post and if you don’t agree with it say why!

I’ve said many times why I disagree,
He’s transformed our national team while he’s been in charge, the squad he took over was a joke

[tyke1962]

All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .

The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .

The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based   patient football in this country .

It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .

The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .

We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .

The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .

Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .

The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .

Play to your strengths .

However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .

[dickos1]

All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .

The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .

The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based   patient football in this country .

It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .

The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .

We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .

The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .

Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .

The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .

Play to your strengths .

However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .

With regards Brazil, they may well have done but in recent years they’ve suffered lots of failure.
I keep saying this but we’ve gone down the route of playing all our best players and shoehorning them into a side and it’s never worked.
Southgate is the only manager that’s moulded a team together rather than just throwing all his best players in and it’s worked.
For me our midfield was outstanding and the defence even more so, those two departments are our strength and we had an outstanding tournament

[danumdon]

All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .

The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .

The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based   patient football in this country .

It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .

The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .

We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .

The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .

Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .

The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .

Play to your strengths .

However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .

Some very perceptive points there,

Its all well and good saying that our defence and midfield have been great during this tournament, and to a certain extent they have, but when you look closer you can see the fault lines.

When it came to keeping possession and building from the back you could see the limitations in our side compared with not just the Italians but with teams like Croatia, Denmark, Germany. Our buildup play involved defenders who you can see were not comfortable on the ball which meant rushed and poor passing resulting in a big hoof from the defender or Pickford. Our midfielders were either too deep so as to not give the defenders an out ball or attempting worldies which come off 1 in 50, too condensed and slow.

When you looked at the way the continental sides built up from the back all the players were comfortable and in control on the ball, the build up included skilled and control passing from defenders and midfielders with the end product aiming to find a gap over the top or in behind, the goalkeepers rarely touched the ball as the outfield players controlled the pass and move to a very good extent.It also helped that the forwards were not just mobile but were actively looking for space and timing runs intelligently and not forever being offside.

We as a footballing nation have come a long way in the last 25 years with regard to our skills base and patient holdup play, but its never been our style and strength and we are still playing catch up in going down this road.

The moral of the argument seems to be, good attempt but we should of built and developed upon our speed, strength and power game rather than try to reinvent the wheel.

[dickos1]

Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them

[sha66y]

Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them

I think what he is saying is that the current English game is quick passing and direct attacking which has probably elevated us to one of the best leagues in the world,

however instead of recreating this style, we tended to opt for a slower tempo which doesn’t suit our mentality or ability as much as it suits other teams….and yet we got the better results when we went more attack direct…

[dickos1]

But the players in the prem are made up of the players he mentioned like Jorginho.
I don’t think we changed our style throughout the tournament so not sure why you think we got the best results after changing our style of play?
We got the good results playing the style of olay throughout

[Monkcaster_Rover]

I like your approach, Dickos. Always positive.

[ravenrover]

Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them

Shaw may be technically outstanding but he has the pace of a 3 legged donkey

[danumdon]

Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them

You say that our centre halfs are two of the most comfortable on the ball in the world in your opinion, what i saw was defenders playing a game that was not a good fit for them, if you have to spend a good deal of time passing to each other, and not very accurately at that and then when you have struggled to control a poor pass revert to having to put either the keeper under pressure to hoof, or you do it yourself, i saw us do that on many occasions, i didn't notice that style of play in the other teams mentioned.

The fact that we beat those teams is irrelevant to my point, we opened them up and scored some good goals, we should of converted more, this did not take away from the fact that we are playing a game that is not instinctive to our players, the continentals have been playing this type of football longer and have the technical skills and control to achieve it. Our game as always been a more direct and fluid attacking style that will always include loose or poor control because at the speed we try to play at.

I would always prefer to watch a team attempt to play in a manner like a Dave Penny side from his time(for our supporters benefit) but with technically proficient players with speed, strength and heart, always a more enjoyable spectical than watching a dull and dreary chess game, others may choose the latter, its their choice.

[dickos1]

I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.

You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it

[danumdon]

I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.

You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it

If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.

I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason  that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.

Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on.

I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.