Further questions to Gavin, transfer process, U23's etc.

[silent majority]

The recruitment process plus the progress so far.

At last week’s meeting we were given the chance to meet with the club again and go into more detail about the recruitment process, how decisions are made and reached, and who has the influence over various parts of that process. So, I met with Gavin again today and we discussed all that, plus chatted about the logic behind the U23 approach and a little more about Club Doncaster and how that has an influence on the playing budget.

We started with Gavin explaining the recruitment process, the make up of the committee, and the framework the club adopted. The actual process for all these decisions has been in place for several years now and has been bought into by all our previous managers, going back to at least Darren Ferguson.

It starts of course with the manager selection, a process which has delivered some decent managers who are selected according to a philosophy that runs through the interview process. There is a clear framework for selection with a ‘DNA profile’ for each position, and each position has a number of names pencilled in at all times, usually 4 or 5 names that the club think will fit that profile and could be available to a club like ours. That ‘DNA profile’ has detailed information on contracts, information about the player himself, and what each position should look like with regard to style, fitness, adaptability, quality etc.  As players move and change the list can be altered to reflect that. Some players become unavailable or make moves that mean they will never be attainable or lose form that will rule them out altogether.

This is a live detailed document, and is updated frequently by the Talent Identification Manager, that reflects the clubs and managers philosophy. It helps of course when managers all play a 4-3-3 formation! As part of the process these players have to be watched at least 3 times to ensure that they actually demonstrate the qualities that brought them to the attention of the club.

The next step would be that the Recruitment Committee, which consists of Jamie Coppinger, Richie Wellens, Graham Younger, David Blunt and Gavin Baldwin, they would discuss the options available, with Jamie, Richie and Graham making the footballing decisions and all having to agree, whilst David Blunt would make the final sign off based on their recommendation and fits within our pay structure. Gavin would then be tasked with ensuring all this works and he, and the manager, assisted by our club secretary Mary, would ensure the approaches are correct and that our paperwork is all in order.

Of course, there are exceptions to this, and last season we had to go with a team that we could afford above all else. Covid wrecked our budget to the point where a lot of the established criteria for selection changed, and of course that has spilled into this season to an extent. Another exception would be the selection of Vilca who we hadn’t see play but came highly recommended. Early reports form Cantley Park seem to bear this out.

A further point to make about this process is that managers have different perceptions of what makes a good left back, or right back etc. What Darren Moore might think could well be different to what Richie thinks, which could make the 4 or 5 names for that position superfluous. The changing of managers on a frequent basis has highlighted the shortcoming of operating a system like this. Therefore, it is vitally important for DRFC to make sure that managers have a decent spell in the club so that the process can function as intended. Of course, we have made changes to the managers contracts so that it would be much more difficult for another club to poach our existing manager. The value of keeping somebody in post who has demonstrated their ability to manage effectively is key to ensuring the process works as intended.

DRFC are extremely pleased with the progress that Richie has made, and the desire to see an end to turnover in players, and actually carrying out what he said he would in the interview process. The challenge is to establish a strong number of players remaining within the club each season, with additions of just 4 or 5 each season so that the core remains. It was a point made strongly by Richie last week when we met. To that end he has signed quite a number whose contracts extend well into next season. Across the back 4 we have Tommy Rowe, Tom Anderson, Ro-Shaun Williams, Kyle Knoyle and Charlie Seaman as a backup. Across the front 3 we have Hiwula, Dodoo, and John Taylor. In midfield we have Ben Close (who RW rates extremely highly) and we have options on John Bostock. We also have options on a few other players including Cameron John, and Hasani, plus Louis Jones and Liam Ravenhill who are signed up. The philosophy, which we covered some years ago, is still to have a very strong first 11 with a player to shadow each position.

The U23’s

A few seasons ago, when Grant McCann was at the club, a decision was mooted that would have an effect on the U23’s position. This decision has also been endorsed by Darren Moore and Richie Wellens. The Academy costs somewhere in the region of £100k each season. The U23’s, if we had a full element of players, would cost more than we could afford if we were to try to attract players of the right kind of ability.

Therefore, a decision was taken that we would attract a better quality of player if we restricted the number to 4 or 5 but pay them the right kind of money. More quality, same cost, less numbers in effect. This is how we now organise that particular age group. We loan them to a club within a certain radius, which means they can train with the club during the week. The plan is then to organise 10-12 games a season that suit what the club needs to achieve, and that may be a higher quality opposition, or a team that plays a certain way. Our team will then be made up of these contracted U23’s, the best U18’s to give them experience and then 1st team players who are returning from injury. That way we can attract a better standard of player and meet the requirements of the club at the same time.

Club Doncaster

I know Club Doncaster has been done to death on this forum and therefore I shan’t go into too much detail. But the main objective from a DRFC point of view is that the commercial activities of Club Doncaster enable us to fund a better playing budget. Without that income we couldn’t operate at the level that we do. The really good news is that whilst I was with Gavin he took a call that really put a smile on his face. When pushed he outlined some detail on some commercial work that the team had been working on. It seems to be a pretty good deal at a time when attracting new forms of income into the club post Covid is a pretty thankless task. Onwards and upwards!

[Metalmicky]

Thanks SM - good background information - and it shows that much thought is being put into the whole process and that it isn't just done on the back of a beer mat as some may believe. 

One interesting comment on there "and we have options on John Bostock"..... can you expand on this?

[SydneyRover]

Thanks again SM, it's good to hear Club Donny is going well. Recruiting, no matter what the field is always a difficult, not sure what more the club can do.

[silent majority]

Thanks SM - good background information - and it shows that much thought is being put into the whole process and that it isn't just done on the back of a beer mat as some may believe. 

One interesting comment on there "and we have options on John Bostock"..... can you expand on this?

Yes, there's one or two contracts that have trigger points in them, i.e. once that player has played x amount of games then the club can take up the option to extend the contract.


Just to be clear I have no idea about individual contracts for any DRFC player, but Gavin did explain that it's quite common for that kind of trigger to be built in, i.e. play x number of games and there's an automatic contract extension.

[Belle Vue Boy]

Did the Option to extend Seaman’s contract get discussed ? Be a shame to lose out on his potential as I’m sure I read his deal expires at the end of the season (could be wrong)

[RugbyRover]

Thanks for all the details SM. Certainly looks like there's a good structure in place for the TIM to work in.

When you say that players should be watched a minimum of three times....watched by whom, the TIM or the manager or other trusted scout?

[steve@dcfd]

Martin question on the information you have provided. When the committee sit down to work out the strategy of bringing in players and looking at players we have do they then decide the budget from their requirements. Wages of players we have plus money required to bring in the players we want. Is that financial information used to calculate the budget for that season. Or is the budget given as a arbitrary figure and the committee have to endeavour to get players into the club to suite that budget even if players we want can’t fit into that budget.

[silent majority]

Did the Option to extend Seaman’s contract get discussed ? Be a shame to lose out on his potential as I’m sure I read his deal expires at the end of the season (could be wrong)

Yes he was discussed and I mentioned him in my report. I'm sure Gavin is including him in the contracted players.

[silent majority]

Thanks for all the details SM. Certainly looks like there's a good structure in place for the TIM to work in.

When you say that players should be watched a minimum of three times....watched by whom, the TIM or the manager or other trusted scout?

Watched by members of the Recruitment Committee was my understanding. To make it on to the list you have to have been seen, and there would certainly not be any discussion about approaches being made unless that had been done. There are exceptions of course, as I mentioned, but the rule generally holds fast.

[Bailey Vickerage]

Very good read that, good to see that we have more players signed up for next season than previous seasons and looking good for the future. Is Anderson contracted for next season because I thought his contract expired at the end of this season, or do we have an option with him aswell. Hope we take up the option on Bostock.

[DonnyOsmond]

Thanks for all the details SM. Certainly looks like there's a good structure in place for the TIM to work in.

When you say that players should be watched a minimum of three times....watched by whom, the TIM or the manager or other trusted scout?

Watched by members of the Recruitment Committee was my understanding. To make it on to the list you have to have been seen, and there would certainly not be any discussion about approaches being made unless that had been done. There are exceptions of course, as I mentioned, but the rule generally holds fast.

How do they initially decide which players that they should watch?

[silent majority]

Martin question on the information you have provided. When the committee sit down to work out the strategy of bringing in players and looking at players we have do they then decide the budget from their requirements. Wages of players we have plus money required to bring in the players we want. Is that financial information used to calculate the budget for that season. Or is the budget given as a arbitrary figure and the committee have to endeavour to get players into the club to suite that budget even if players we want can’t fit into that budget.

The way the playing budget is calculated is pretty simple. Firstly the expenditure for running DRFC is calculated, and that will be handled by the financial director and others. The income is also calculated based on the information to hand, i.e season ticket sales (projected of course) plus all the relevant targets that are set for people like Shaun Lockwood and Jon and his team in the commercial departments. These will always be stretched budgets just to keep them on their toes!! The income from other areas, i.e. Club Doncaster is also included so that the club can see what funds they have.

Once the club have an idea of expenditure and income you take one from the other and what's left is your playing budget!  Contracted players will be known as to the level required to keep them and what's left is available for the manager to attract newer players.

[silent majority]

Very good read that, good to see that we have more players signed up for next season than previous seasons and looking good for the future. Is Anderson contracted for next season because I thought his contract expired at the end of this season, or do we have an option with him aswell. Hope we take up the option on Bostock.

Well Gavin included him in the contracted players for next season without referring to options or anything, so I'm going to assume that it's all in place.

[silent majority]

Thanks for all the details SM. Certainly looks like there's a good structure in place for the TIM to work in.

When you say that players should be watched a minimum of three times....watched by whom, the TIM or the manager or other trusted scout?

Watched by members of the Recruitment Committee was my understanding. To make it on to the list you have to have been seen, and there would certainly not be any discussion about approaches being made unless that had been done. There are exceptions of course, as I mentioned, but the rule generally holds fast.

How do they initially decide which players that they should watch?

I'm sure there a dozen different ways that a player would come to their attention, I'm sure either the scouting network or recommendation etc.

I know Richie mentioned last week that having contacts in the game is vital for that sort of work and that he will talk about players with other managers quite regularly.

[steve@dcfd]

Thankyou for the answer Martin

[silent majority]

Just to add, as I forgot to mention in my report, that the playing budget is calculated quite a fair way in advance. Next years budget is already a discussion point with Richie, as is the one the year after. That helps him to plan a little further into the next few transfer windows.

[RoversAlias]

Thanks for the info SM, can I ask if you had any insights into how these recruitment lists are assembled? I mean, in terms of what factors are used to assess a potential player - is it statistical and analytics based, or more akin to old school scouting where you just send Younger or a scout to watch the player and he makes notes based on what he sees?

[silent majority]

Thanks for the info SM, can I ask if you had any insights into how these recruitment lists are assembled? I mean, in terms of what factors are used to assess a potential player - is it statistical and analytics based, or more akin to old school scouting where you just send Younger or a scout to watch the player and he makes notes based on what he sees?

I did write this;

There is a clear framework for selection with a ‘DNA profile’ for each position, and each position has a number of names pencilled in at all times, usually 4 or 5 names that the club think will fit that profile and could be available to a club like ours. That ‘DNA profile’ has detailed information on contracts, information about the player himself, and what each position should look like with regard to style, fitness, adaptability, quality etc.

Does that answer your question?

[Bailey Vickerage]

Very good read that, good to see that we have more players signed up for next season than previous seasons and looking good for the future. Is Anderson contracted for next season because I thought his contract expired at the end of this season, or do we have an option with him aswell. Hope we take up the option on Bostock.

Well Gavin included him in the contracted players for next season without referring to options or anything, so I'm going to assume that it's all in place.

fair enough, Will have to wait and see I guess. Was anything said about if and when other players would be offered new contracts?

[silent majority]

Very good read that, good to see that we have more players signed up for next season than previous seasons and looking good for the future. Is Anderson contracted for next season because I thought his contract expired at the end of this season, or do we have an option with him aswell. Hope we take up the option on Bostock.

Well Gavin included him in the contracted players for next season without referring to options or anything, so I'm going to assume that it's all in place.

fair enough, Will have to wait and see I guess. Was anything said about if and when other players would be offered new contracts?

I think I mentioned all of the ones we spoke about. Is there anybody in particular? It might jog my memory.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Thanks S_M for the info.

Just curious how frequently Younger meets with Richie and whoever to report back on players already being monitored and any new potential players?

Might be interesting to hear 'A week in the life of Graham Younger' to provide a flavour of how many games watched, players watched, miles covered etc during a typical week. How many scouting reports does he write or update? Do Richie, Hunt and Copps also take in games depending on geographical location?

Given we're moving on to the January window, without giving anything too much away, are there any serious targets being considered?

[RoversAlias]

Thanks for the info SM, can I ask if you had any insights into how these recruitment lists are assembled? I mean, in terms of what factors are used to assess a potential player - is it statistical and analytics based, or more akin to old school scouting where you just send Younger or a scout to watch the player and he makes notes based on what he sees?

I did write this;

There is a clear framework for selection with a ‘DNA profile’ for each position, and each position has a number of names pencilled in at all times, usually 4 or 5 names that the club think will fit that profile and could be available to a club like ours. That ‘DNA profile’ has detailed information on contracts, information about the player himself, and what each position should look like with regard to style, fitness, adaptability, quality etc.

Does that answer your question?

No it doesn't, which is why I asked the question after reading everything you had put.

I'll rephrase my question then - do the club use analytics in their recruitment strategy?

[silent majority]

Thanks for the info SM, can I ask if you had any insights into how these recruitment lists are assembled? I mean, in terms of what factors are used to assess a potential player - is it statistical and analytics based, or more akin to old school scouting where you just send Younger or a scout to watch the player and he makes notes based on what he sees?

I did write this;

There is a clear framework for selection with a ‘DNA profile’ for each position, and each position has a number of names pencilled in at all times, usually 4 or 5 names that the club think will fit that profile and could be available to a club like ours. That ‘DNA profile’ has detailed information on contracts, information about the player himself, and what each position should look like with regard to style, fitness, adaptability, quality etc.

Does that answer your question?

No it doesn't, which is why I asked the question after reading everything you had put.

I'll rephrase my question then - do the club use analytics in their recruitment strategy?

Fair enough, I didn't ask that question but I'm sure I can follow up on that with Gavin and/or Graham.

[Batleyred]

Where’s godlikes post gone saying the sun shines out of their arse. Was well written till the last sentence. Some people are just born to moan.

[Donxaster]

Thanks for the info SM, can I ask if you had any insights into how these recruitment lists are assembled? I mean, in terms of what factors are used to assess a potential player - is it statistical and analytics based, or more akin to old school scouting where you just send Younger or a scout to watch the player and he makes notes based on what he sees?

I did write this;

There is a clear framework for selection with a ‘DNA profile’ for each position, and each position has a number of names pencilled in at all times, usually 4 or 5 names that the club think will fit that profile and could be available to a club like ours. That ‘DNA profile’ has detailed information on contracts, information about the player himself, and what each position should look like with regard to style, fitness, adaptability, quality etc.

Does that answer your question?

No it doesn't, which is why I asked the question after reading everything you had put.

I'll rephrase my question then - do the club use analytics in their recruitment strategy?

Yes agree, original post was vague. I’m also very interested in the process and Younger’s input.

[River Don]

To play devil's advocate, is management by committee necessarily a good thing?

For instance, if Richie is really committed to bringing in a certain player, would Jamie and Graham be able to veto that? You seem to be saying they would... But ultimately it's always the manager who is in the firing line.

[silent majority]

To play devil's advocate, is management by committee necessarily a good thing?

For instance, if Richie is really committed to bringing in a certain player, would Jamie and Graham be able to veto that? You seem to be saying they would... But ultimately it's always the manager who is in the firing line.

I'm sure it would have to be by consensus.

It's the same argument about employing a Director of Football. How would the DoF be able to refuse a request by the manager for a certain player? Can you imagine how that would pan out? RW says he wants a certain player but the DoF overrules him completely! I can't see that manager lasting very long under those conditions.

[River Don]

In that system a DoF really ought to be taking ultimately responsibility for the players being signed. The idea being that gives recruitment a stability and allows a club to develop a certain system.

I know in practice the head coach is usually put in the firing line when things go wrong anyway but really that isn't how it should work.

[River Don]

Anyway, devil's advocate as I say.

It's interesting to see how it works, I'm sure Brian Clough would never have put up with it but I expect its not so dissimilar for Pep Gaurdiola.

[Bailey Vickerage]

Very good read that, good to see that we have more players signed up for next season than previous seasons and looking good for the future. Is Anderson contracted for next season because I thought his contract expired at the end of this season, or do we have an option with him aswell. Hope we take up the option on Bostock.

Well Gavin included him in the contracted players for next season without referring to options or anything, so I'm going to assume that it's all in place.

fair enough, Will have to wait and see I guess. Was anything said about if and when other players would be offered new contracts?

I think I mentioned all of the ones we spoke about. Is there anybody in particular? It might jog my memory.

okenabirhie and Horton the main ones I was thinking of. Then there’s the likes of Greaves, Gardner and Barlow but would expect them to be offered deals towards the end of the season if RW wants to keep them.