They don't really get the North, these Tories.

[BillyStubbsTears]

People who are looking to be alienated by Starmer will find whatever reason they need to be alienated by Starmer. Meanwhile, Labour that the Left seems to have written off is within touching distance of the Tories in the polls.

[DonnyOsmond]

People who are looking to be alienated by Starmer will find whatever reason they need to be alienated by Starmer. Meanwhile, Labour that the Left seems to have written off is within touching distance of the Tories in the polls.

Which is really good because we know how well this Tory party have done and how Boris is such a competent leader with a brilliant cabinet behind him!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

People who are looking to be alienated by Starmer will find whatever reason they need to be alienated by Starmer. Meanwhile, Labour that the Left seems to have written off is within touching distance of the Tories in the polls.

Which is really good because we know how well this Tory party have done and how Boris is such a competent leader with a brilliant cabinet behind him!

I do agree they need to follow through on policies.

I did though see a good point. The two leaders' speaches did contrast. One positive one quite negative.  Boris Johnson is very clever on that, turning negatives in to positives is a good strategy. Labour need to do that, be very questioning and critical but publicly create a positive image for the future.  Biden did that quite strongly in America, he focussed more on his aims than trump's failures.

What wins votes? Tories are scum or this is how we will make your life better?

[BillyStubbsTears]

DO
The Tories have given 40% of the electorate what they want in Brexit. They got a boost from the success of the vaccine rollout.

YOU might think the Tories are useless, but there are millions of people out there who don't agree.

BUT. There's been a steady drift in Tory support since early summer. People will forget the vaccines. Some will start to question the wisdom of Brexit. More still will just be pissed off with higher bills and the air of crisis.

None of which will prevent Johnson being elected again if a million people on the Left insist on not voting Labour when the time comes because...principles.

[DonnyOsmond]

DO
The Tories have given 40% of the electorate what they want in Brexit. They got a boost from the success of the vaccine rollout.

YOU might think the Tories are useless, but there are millions of people out there who don't agree.

BUT. There's been a steady drift in Tory support since early summer. People will forget the vaccines. Some will start to question the wisdom of Brexit. More still will just be pissed off with higher bills and the air of crisis.

None of which will prevent Johnson being elected again if a million people on the Left insist on not voting Labour when the time comes because...principles.

But what can be done to entice those voters?

Personally, if there was an election tomorrow I'd be voting Green but if Starmer can prove to be a more inspiring figure and work towards some policies (no one's asking for a complete manifesto) then as someone who is center-left I'd be willing to listen...

The way to winning the election isn't by Labour voters attacking Labour voters.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well I gave a link to a list of a dozen policies from the 2019 manifesto that Starmer has already signed up to.

You are saying explicitly that you'd rather have Johnson re-elected than see a Labour PM be in a position to implement those policies.

[ColinDouglasHandshake]

Reform party for me i think this coming election.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

If you get off your soapbox for a moment and consider policies from the 2019 Labour manifesto that Starmer has already signed up to, we can have a sensible discussion.

There's a list in these two tweets.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1443498164682625026

https://mobile.twitter.com/FisherAndrew79/status/1443502296210583559?s=20

That's a hell of a lot of left wing policies from a Red Tory.

So come on. What are YOU prepared to do to find a compromise non the Left. Or is it that, unless you get it just the way you want it, you'd rather have the Tories in power?

Billy , The Tories have placed their tanks on what should be Labour's front lawn .

Levelling up , moving from a low wage low skill economy etc etc .

With all due respect the party is going to have to be far more radical than what you have linked to blow the rhetoric away .

They are going to have to first convince the electorate that Johnson is doing nothing of the sort whilst at the same proving they are the ones to level up , increase the minimum wage etc etc .

It's not the greatest start to backtrack on nationalisation of the energy companies when trying to convince the electorate you are the only genuine champion of Mr and Mrs Joe cost of living .

The first of the big six energy companies to fall in to great difficulty and the Tories take them over and Keith's going to look remarkably stupid to say the least .

I'd even say it would completely finish him .

I'm not against the policies you've highlighted by any means what I'm saying is it isn't going to be enough .

To beat Johnson's rhetoric Labour need way way less market forces speak and far more state will deliver the change .

State intervention is in play , massively .

The problem is Keith's instincts and the despicable Mandelson are in 1997 because that's all they know .

[tyke1962]

Perfectly simple SS.

You don't win political power if you don't communicate with people. Whatever I think about the Sun (and for the record I think it is beneath being worth wiping your arse on) the fact is that many other people don't think that, and get much of their political news filtered through it. So any politician who ignores it is cutting his nose off to spite his face.

As for the people of Liverpool, I'd hope they'd be able to see the big picture that I've explained above. There is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't hate the Sun and boycott buying it, while accepting that you have to use it if you want to get into power (and ideally, hold the bas**rds that own and edit it to account once you are in power).

It might be half an idea to actually know what kind of feeling writing in The Scum does for an area with 15 northern parliamentary constituencies .

At a time when it maybe reasonable to suggest building bridges with northern voters wouldn't be the worst idea .

It may also be reasonable to suggest people in Merseyside are probably the shop stewards of the UK and it ain't a great idea to pyss them off .

It ain't a great idea to write for The Scum given the emotion surrounding the Hillsborough disaster within Merseyside .

Any clued up Labour leader wouldn't go near that publication with the proverbial barge pole especially one looking to rebuild trust and relationship with the electorate .

Only someone from a cosmopolitan background and completely out of touch would do so .

Don't take the Merseyside vote for granted , trust me don't .

They are likely to elect 15 chimpanzees on a matter of principle as a consequence .

The five gains in white van man Essex equates to another ten losses for the Labour Party .

If the Labour Party needs The Scum to get elected then perhaps it should look at itself .

[SydneyRover]

I suppose the problem with the sun being a loyal murdoch rag the tories don't have to 'write' for it as it faithfully prints everything at all the emanates from entertainment HQ in number 10 and provides distractions when there is bad news.

[SydneyRover]

Perfectly simple SS.

You don't win political power if you don't communicate with people. Whatever I think about the Sun (and for the record I think it is beneath being worth wiping your arse on) the fact is that many other people don't think that, and get much of their political news filtered through it. So any politician who ignores it is cutting his nose off to spite his face.

As for the people of Liverpool, I'd hope they'd be able to see the big picture that I've explained above. There is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't hate the Sun and boycott buying it, while accepting that you have to use it if you want to get into power (and ideally, hold the bas**rds that own and edit it to account once you are in power).

It might be half an idea to actually know what kind of feeling writing in The Scum does for an area with 15 northern parliamentary constituencies .

At a time when it maybe reasonable to suggest building bridges with northern voters wouldn't be the worst idea .

It may also be reasonable to suggest people in Merseyside are probably the shop stewards of the UK and it ain't a great idea to pyss them off .

It ain't a great idea to write for The Scum given the emotion surrounding the Hillsborough disaster within Merseyside .

Any clued up Labour leader wouldn't go near that publication with the proverbial barge pole especially one looking to rebuild trust and relationship with the electorate .

Only someone from a cosmopolitan background and completely out of touch would do so .

Don't take the Merseyside vote for granted , trust me don't .

They are likely to elect 15 chimpanzees on a matter of principle as a consequence .

The five gains in white van man Essex equates to another ten losses for the Labour Party .

If the Labour Party needs The Scum to get elected then perhaps it should look at itself .

I suppose one of the things one has to sort is reality from hype Tyke.

Atm everything johnson & the johnson's have said is exactly that 'said' and nothing more this levelling up, remind me howw long it's been a 'thing' and how much has been done, everything so far has just been chat or 180 degrees opposite, look at the tax increases for starters, they are real and yet sunak is already talking about how he's going to reduce taxes.

'Tanks on the lawn' it sounds like you believe more than most.

The reality is labour just got hammered at the last election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Blair regularly wrote in The Sun. Remind me how many Labour MPs were hoyed out of Merseyside as a result.

[tyke1962]

Perfectly simple SS.

You don't win political power if you don't communicate with people. Whatever I think about the Sun (and for the record I think it is beneath being worth wiping your arse on) the fact is that many other people don't think that, and get much of their political news filtered through it. So any politician who ignores it is cutting his nose off to spite his face.

As for the people of Liverpool, I'd hope they'd be able to see the big picture that I've explained above. There is no reason whatsoever why you shouldn't hate the Sun and boycott buying it, while accepting that you have to use it if you want to get into power (and ideally, hold the bas**rds that own and edit it to account once you are in power).

It might be half an idea to actually know what kind of feeling writing in The Scum does for an area with 15 northern parliamentary constituencies .

At a time when it maybe reasonable to suggest building bridges with northern voters wouldn't be the worst idea .

It may also be reasonable to suggest people in Merseyside are probably the shop stewards of the UK and it ain't a great idea to pyss them off .

It ain't a great idea to write for The Scum given the emotion surrounding the Hillsborough disaster within Merseyside .

Any clued up Labour leader wouldn't go near that publication with the proverbial barge pole especially one looking to rebuild trust and relationship with the electorate .

Only someone from a cosmopolitan background and completely out of touch would do so .

Don't take the Merseyside vote for granted , trust me don't .

They are likely to elect 15 chimpanzees on a matter of principle as a consequence .

The five gains in white van man Essex equates to another ten losses for the Labour Party .

If the Labour Party needs The Scum to get elected then perhaps it should look at itself .

I suppose one of the things one has to sort is reality from hype Tyke.

Atm everything johnson & the johnson's have said is exactly that 'said' and nothing more this levelling up, remind me howw long it's been a 'thing' and how much has been done, everything so far has just been chat or 180 degrees opposite, look at the tax increases for starters, they are real and yet sunak is already talking about how he's going to reduce taxes.

'Tanks on the lawn' it sounds like you believe more than most.

The reality is labour just got hammered at the last election.

I really don't know what to say Sydney but I'm a trier none the less .

I get the impression which to be fair is pretty conclusive given the only links you present are from The Guardian .

If you want to find out what the Tories are up to it's best to cast your net further than the tribalist  publications you rely on .

They've discovered the big state rhetoric Sydney and I do say rhetoric by the way .

This after the small state and market forces they've lived and died by since 1979 .

Of course it's b@llax .

None the less it's shifted the conversation and because they have favourable media and pretty good at lying it works .

They have significant votes in working class areas which they never had before .

If Labour do not engage them and prove they are better at this game which they historically should be and make the case for the power of the state over market forces by proving the policy rather than rhetoric then you know the rest .

Unfortunately and I do say unfortunately the current holders of the Labour Party can't see the game that's getting played here .

Instinctively they are going down the state to aid business route which was Blair's play plus the faith in free markets .

Keith with his background is more credible to make the case for the power of the state , the electorate are far more susceptible to see the state can be relied on more than the markets .

The majority have had furlough to save our asses for starters these last 18 months .

By definition Labour saved the country from bankruptcy in 2008 .

So that leads the electorate to conclude the state saves them from neoliberalism and a global pandemic .

This isn't some hard left ideology this is the rules of engagement today .

All the Labour Party have to do which given it's history is prove the point they are better at using the state to aid the country .

Given the natural Tory ideology that wouldn't in my opinion be that fecking hard to do .

Especially a Tory government who are merely blowing smoke up the electorates back side .

[SydneyRover]

''If Labour do not engage them and prove they are better at this game which they historically should be and make the case for the power of the state over market forces by proving the policy rather than rhetoric then you know the rest ''

Are you referring to the 'now' labour or the labour that just recently got kicked in the balls tyke?

try this publication

https://www.greenleft.org.au/

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Blair regularly wrote in The Sun. Remind me how many Labour MPs were hoyed out of Merseyside as a result.

Even Foot and Kinnock didn't lose Scotland and the Red Wall Billy .

C'mon fella let's play today's game .

[SydneyRover]

''If Labour do not engage them and prove they are better at this game which they historically should be and make the case for the power of the state over market forces by proving the policy rather than rhetoric then you know the rest ''

Are you referring to the 'now' labour or the labour that just recently got kicked in the balls tyke?

try this publication

https://www.greenleft.org.au/

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to hand the new leadership of labour the remains of a shit sandwich and then be offering advice on how it should be done, tyke?

[tyke1962]

''If Labour do not engage them and prove they are better at this game which they historically should be and make the case for the power of the state over market forces by proving the policy rather than rhetoric then you know the rest ''

Are you referring to the 'now' labour or the labour that just recently got kicked in the balls tyke?

try this publication

https://www.greenleft.org.au/

For God's sake man wake up .

We've had a global pandemic and the Tories are mismanaging leaving the EU .

Even 2019 is no longer relevant .

Look I ain't here to make the case for Corbyn the man I'm making the case for massive state intervention .

If you believe you can solve 2021 problems given what's occurred since 2008 with 1997 solutions then unfortunately you are massively wrong in my opinion .

[SydneyRover]

''If Labour do not engage them and prove they are better at this game which they historically should be and make the case for the power of the state over market forces by proving the policy rather than rhetoric then you know the rest ''

Are you referring to the 'now' labour or the labour that just recently got kicked in the balls tyke?

try this publication

https://www.greenleft.org.au/

For God's sake man wake up .

We've had a global pandemic and the Tories are mismanaging leaving the EU .

Even 2019 is no longer relevant .

Look I ain't here to make the case for Corbyn the man I'm making the case for massive state intervention .

If you believe you can solve 2021 problems given what's occurred since 2008 with 1997 solutions then unfortunately you are massively wrong in my opinion .

You keep trotting out tory lines and talking points as though they are real.

Look at the economy before the pandemic, look at what labour did after the gfc.

And yet you still would rather see the tories in power than labour, I think you need to get up out of the armchair and help out rather than supporting the party that got us here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

Blair regularly wrote in The Sun. Remind me how many Labour MPs were hoyed out of Merseyside as a result.

Even Foot and Kinnock didn't lose Scotland and the Red Wall Billy .

C'mon fella let's play today's game .

You missed your vocation Tyke.

With your ability to stay on message and just ghost any facts that contradict your world view, you REALLY should have been a New Labour MP!

Mandelson would have been proud of you.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

Blair regularly wrote in The Sun. Remind me how many Labour MPs were hoyed out of Merseyside as a result.

Even Foot and Kinnock didn't lose Scotland and the Red Wall Billy .

C'mon fella let's play today's game .

You missed your vocation Tyke.

With your ability to stay on message and just ghost any facts that contradict your world view, you REALLY should have been a New Labour MP!

Mandelson would have been proud of you.

I'm really lost for words Billy , but hey ho you carry on missing the game that's getting played here by the Tory government .

It's not a great look they are humiliating you , the Labour Party and the many not the few .

There's none so blind that can't see .

I can't hang my hat on such a pathetic excuse of a party .

Proper embarrassing to do so .

Getting fecked over at what should be their own game is something I can't do .

Good Luck with it anyway .

[SydneyRover]

All you really have to do tyke is set out a path for a labour victory.

Define the strategy, how many votes and seats required.

And of course name your champion, within the boundaries you have set yourself.

Please try to stick with it, regard it as homework if you like but please, no insults or smoke.

[tyke1962]

All you really have to do tyke is set out a path for a labour victory.

Define the strategy, how many votes and seats required.

And of course name your champion, within the boundaries you have set yourself.

Please try to stick with it, regard it as homework if you like but please, no insults or smoke.

Well you'll own the next election result with no lefty in sight .

Own it lock , stock and  barrel .

You'll blame the electorate for not voting your way of course which is what you do with me and relinquish all responsibility for it .

It's always somebody else isn't it .

The truth is the people who once voted for you absolutely hate you .

That's how good you are , what was the vote in the bag hate you .

They'd sooner Bunter blow smoke up their ass than vote for you lot .

Just absorb that fact , an Etonian Tory who blows smoke up their ass is more preferable to Keith .

Yep he walloped Corbyn too but which shadow brexit minister was responsible for that ? .

There's nothing more to say really .

[SydneyRover]

All you really have to do tyke is set out a path for a labour victory.

Define the strategy, how many votes and seats required.

And of course name your champion, within the boundaries you have set yourself.

Please try to stick with it, regard it as homework if you like but please, no insults or smoke.

Well you'll own the next election result with no lefty in sight .

Own it lock , stock and  barrel .

You'll blame the electorate for not voting your way of course which is what you do with me and relinquish all responsibility for it .

It's always somebody else isn't it .

The truth is the people who once voted for you absolutely hate you .

That's how good you are , what was the vote in the bag hate you .

They'd sooner Bunter blow smoke up their ass than vote for you lot .

Just absorb that fact , an Etonian Tory who blows smoke up their ass is more preferable to Keith .

Yep he walloped Corbyn too but which shadow brexit minister was responsible for that ? .

There's nothing more to say really .

More smoke than an Australian bushfire tyke, piss or get off the pot.

[SydneyRover]

The best thing that could be said about the tory mess following 11 years of economic blind mans bluff is written in the old joke but now a bit of a truism.

If I was going to go there, I wouldn't be starting from here.