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Author Topic: The cost of Brexit  (Read 2668 times)

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Not Now Kato

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #120 on September 25, 2021, 02:18:07 pm by Not Now Kato »
  Oh yes there was Syd, if you believe in freedom and independence there was only one way to vote, and that was to get out before things got far worse and the EU becomes what some always wanted and it will become  a federal state.
  And politicians like Starmer and his entourage going back and forwards colluding openly with their mates in Europe were the nail in the coffin of a remain vote for many.
 Their actions were the opposite to the lies they were spinning, and were seen through by the electorate.
  You gobbled the lies and many more like you, that's why you lost.

Lies you say?....
 
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1440610259278524424/pu/vid/1280x720/ehUFsKrOdSDG12r6.mp4?tag=12
 
The problem is, so what? What are the consequences for him of being found out with his lying?

So far, bugger all.

None of this seems to gain any real traction anymore with a tired and apathetic electorate and a media that barely seems to be able to mount much of a challenge, (and at the tabloid end simply go out of their way to compound the problem). It's straight from the Donald Trump play-book now in the UK - lie so much that lying just becomes the norm and accepted by people like selby, (and he's not alone by a very long way!). That is the absolute tragedy of Trump and Johnson - the massive undermining of public standards and the obliteration of the expectation that leaders should even attempt to be truthful.



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SydneyRover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #121 on September 25, 2021, 10:31:16 pm by SydneyRover »
Sounds like selby wants politicians to have the freedom to lie their f**king heads off

idler

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #122 on September 25, 2021, 10:39:11 pm by idler »
You can always tell when Boris is lying.
His lips move.

SydneyRover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #123 on October 11, 2021, 11:03:29 pm by SydneyRover »
''Frost throws ECJ spanner in works on Northern Ireland protocol''

The penny has dropped tyke, you are Lord David Frost and I demand my £5.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/11/frost-throws-ecj-spanner-in-works-on-northern-ireland-protocol

Not Now Kato

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #124 on October 12, 2021, 11:16:26 am by Not Now Kato »
Seems there's a minor dint to BoJo's high tech/high wage vision
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599
 
I wonder how many more there'll be.

Not Now Kato

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #125 on October 12, 2021, 03:55:32 pm by Not Now Kato »
Promise promises.  Oh how easily the gullible were led....
 

 

SydneyRover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #126 on October 12, 2021, 06:10:28 pm by SydneyRover »
the guardian

''Brexit minister seeks to tear up key part of his own agreement''

''Frost seems to be getting round to his point now: in brief, that the Northern Ireland protocol his government sought, signed up to and then trumpeted loudly, is so hated and unworkable, it would be imprudent of the EU to try to enforce it''

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #127 on October 12, 2021, 09:48:21 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I read the transcript of Frost's speech today. If his intention is to make everyone of us embarrassed to be British, he's doing a fine job.

When you strip away the waffle, the core of what he's saying is that the NI Protocol is shit and we only signed it because we were under intolerable time pressure in October 2019. So it should be ripped up and re-written. In a way that means the EU accepts that the single market boundary between Ireland and NI, or between NI and GB is effectively not policed.

What f**king planet is he on?

1) We were told in 2019 that the NI Protocol was in the biggest diplomatic success since mankind learned to grunt.

2) Yes there was an intolerable time pressure in 2019. Because Johnson chose not to ask for an extension to the transition period. It's like saying it's not fair your nose gets broken when you are repeatedly smashing your face into a wall

3) People on the Leave side have pointed out consistently for 5 years that there is no solution to the Irish problem that has GB out of the SM, without either a border between NI and Ireland, or between NI and GB. The Brexit death cult has continuously ignored that. And now they are acting astonished that the other side actually meant it.

So now there is no solution that doesn't involve one of these three outcomes.

1) We admit how f**king stupid we were to leave the SM and ask to rejoin.
2) The EU decides the SM isn't actually that important and agrees to ignore the boundary of it, where it meets the UK.

3) One or other side of the NI sectarian divided is told it has lost, with all the consequences for the GFA.

1 cannot happen under this Govt.

The EU cannot as a basic principle accept 2.

So steel yourself for 3.

And we were sneered at as playing Project Fear games in 2016 when we said this was where Leave had to end up dumping us.

What the f**k have you people done?

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #128 on October 12, 2021, 10:08:43 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Actually, I forgot the aspect of Frost's speech that is most shocking.

He's complaining that it is intolerable that there should be a border between GB and NI.

But hang on. In the 2019 election campaign, Johnson insisted repeatedly that the Protocol that Frost had agreed, and Johnson had signed absolutely did not require a border between GB and NI.

They wouldn't recognise truth and honour if it locked them in the b*llocks, this shower of barrow boy shite.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #129 on October 13, 2021, 10:29:43 am by BillyStubbsTears »
Cummings is at it again. Claiming the policy all along was to get any deal in 2019 and then ditch bits that we didn't like after winning an election.

And folk wonder why no-one  trusts the Brexit Death Cult.

By the way, he's not saying this to criticise the Govt. He thinks this is exacu the way that treaties should be negotiated.

Stop and think what this says about Johnson and Cummings's attitude towards the electorate. Here's Cummings admitting they got an unworkable deal in 2019, but they then won the Election on the basis they Got Brexit Done. Knowing full well that they were planning to ditch that deal.

tyke1962

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #130 on October 13, 2021, 12:19:26 pm by tyke1962 »
I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .

As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .

Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .

I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .

I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .

Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .

I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .

The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .

My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .

The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .

If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #131 on October 13, 2021, 12:31:00 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
I do agree on some of these points.  I still fundamentally believe leaving the EU was the right thing to do, though the way policies have been enacted since that point have been really poor.  I wonder how many opposition MPs wish they'd backed Theresa May now?

Dutch Uncle

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #132 on October 13, 2021, 12:44:37 pm by Dutch Uncle »

3) People on the Leave side have pointed out consistently for 5 years that there is no solution to the Irish problem that has GB out of the SM, without either a border between NI and Ireland, or between NI and GB. The Brexit death cult has continuously ignored that. And now they are acting astonished that the other side actually meant it.


As you point out BST, we are feeling rather anxious about the future over here in Northern Ireland. And the present is a major downgrade already with non-availability of so many perishable items. 

What I cannot understand is that the DUP went along with all of this when they of all people should know the impossibility of a solution.

It really is as simple as this (from 2019):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Yv24cM2os

Edit: By the way a reminder that NI as a whole voted remain. Very roughly speaking, Unionists, led by the DUP, voted about 60-40 to leave while nationalists voted about 80-20 to remain, giving an overall approx 60-40 to remain.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 12:57:28 pm by Dutch Uncle »

Campsall rover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #133 on October 13, 2021, 12:47:22 pm by Campsall rover »
I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .

As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .

Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .

I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .

I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .

Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .

I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .

The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .

My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .

The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .

If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .
I could not have said that any better about myself Tyke.  Exactly how i  was and am about Brexit.

wilts rover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #134 on October 13, 2021, 01:04:48 pm by wilts rover »
Here (in his own words) is the explanation for what Frost is doing and why now. They are not attacking the NI because it doesn't work - but because it is working too well:

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1445058698380992517

selby

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #135 on October 13, 2021, 01:14:41 pm by selby »
  Voted to stay in, was surprised by the out vote, now totally behind being out after the attitude of the EU towards this country and the treacherous politicians and remainer's who are not willing to accept a democratic vote by the people, and continue to undermine our every effort to make a success of the fact we are out. 
  As far as the situation in Ireland is concerned as long as when the doodoo hits the fan they start throwing their little toys about it is in Brussels or Paris where the problem is I don't give a damn, and it might concentrate a few minds. After all it is decisions and rules being imposed over there that are causing the problems.

Dutch Uncle

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #136 on October 13, 2021, 01:30:32 pm by Dutch Uncle »
  As far as the situation in Ireland is concerned as long as when the doodoo hits the fan they start throwing their little toys about it is in Brussels or Paris where the problem is I don't give a damn, and it might concentrate a few minds. After all it is decisions and rules being imposed over there that are causing the problems.

Selby

I respect your football views, but the above unfortunately is as far from true as a flat earth.

The problem in Ireland is the result of centuries of British plantation and carving up of the country and its resources. This led to the uprising in 1916 and partition in 1921. This in turn led to all the legacy issues of unfairness in the newly created Northern Ireland, which has since inception always been part of the UK, well before the EU existed. The Troubles were the inevitable result of decades of continued unfairness and these were doused by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 signed by the British Government. The British Government has now consciously taken a path which involves removing this solution. The fault is 100% squarely on the British side from centuries ago right up until now. Blaming sectarian tensions and problems in Northern Ireland on the EU is nonsensical and not based on any Irish history.  The very rules that are known to have been crucial in creating peace in Northern Ireland in 1998 are being stripped away and ignored by the British Government.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 01:36:17 pm by Dutch Uncle »

tyke1962

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #137 on October 13, 2021, 01:36:13 pm by tyke1962 »
I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .

As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .

Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .

I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .

I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .

Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .

I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .

The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .

My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .

The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .

If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .
I could not have said that any better about myself Tyke.  Exactly how i  was and am about Brexit.

You simply can't renegade on deals that were struck with the EU , it's an indefensible position .

It's an embarrassment to me as someone with my finger prints on this .

The Tory Party is the Tory Party who have made lives pretty miserable at times for people in this country but none the less there was a certain amount of honour and duty amongst them with people such as Ken Clarke and Heseltine who played a major part of attracting business to Liverpool and a city completely on it's ass through Thatcher .

I really don't know what this lot in power is today , I haven't the words .

The problem is just as long as the Tory Party is in power and remains in power then that's all that matters to those within the party and many of its traditional voters .

That's where they differ to myself because I can't support the Labour Party in the way these people can the Tories if I fundamentally disagree with its position .

If that's a flaw then it's a flaw but there you are .

I keep thinking to myself did leaving the EU inevitably lead to this ?

Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?

My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .

This isn't some post for myself to wriggle off the hook as a leaver voter and never a lover of the EU .

My point is the democratic vote was delivered to parliament and it ain't a crime for anyone to vote they way they do .

However it's a crime to mismanage the process , try to stop it , have another vote in order to achieve a different result , fail to compromise , use it to gain personally , not honour the promises made and certainly not then renegade on deals done .

I'll take my share of the blame and subsequent criticism .

I wish the fecker had never happened and that's my feeling right now .

Dutch Uncle

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #138 on October 13, 2021, 01:41:15 pm by Dutch Uncle »

Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?

My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .



I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.

Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU. 

Glyn_Wigley

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #139 on October 13, 2021, 02:28:22 pm by Glyn_Wigley »

Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?

My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .



I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.

Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU. 

Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #140 on October 13, 2021, 02:59:49 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
It is as clear a case of bad faith by a politician as you will ever see. Johnson knew damn well that the deal Frost negotiated and he signed required a trade border between GB and NI with checks on goods passing over the border. It is written in the document in black and white. But he repeatedly insisted during the election campaign that there would be no checks on goods passing between GB and NI. Absolute cast iron lying.

Now Frost is saying that an arrangement that requires checks on goods is unacceptable and the agreement must be torn up and renegotiated.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #141 on October 13, 2021, 03:02:23 pm by BillyStubbsTears »

Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?

My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .



I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.

Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU. 

Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.

And according to opinion polls in 2017, 70% of the country would have accepted that. The Labour party would have supported that outcome - it was their own policy once Corbyn had been talked sense to.

But the Tory party unilaterally decided that wasn't what people voted for in 2016...

Campsall rover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #142 on October 13, 2021, 03:26:00 pm by Campsall rover »

Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?

My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .



I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.

Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU. 

Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.

And according to opinion polls in 2017, 70% of the country would have accepted that. The Labour party would have supported that outcome - it was their own policy once Corbyn had been talked sense to.

But the Tory party unilaterally decided that wasn't what people voted for in 2016...
We were not asked to vote on it BST. It was IN or OUT

The whole point of the EU for me was it should have been a trading platform for all the member countries as the Common Market was before. That is all it should be.
It’s all the rest of it that is flawed and that is what the British people were voting against
( only just of course ) in 2016 imo.

The single market is what we should have remained in and that was what our Government should have negotiated with the EU. Assuming it was possible to do that. Was it though?

Why Cameron had this ridiculous referendum i seriously do not know. They the politicians are supposed to be the clever ones not us the public. That is why they get elected isn’t it. To run the country.

We were simply voting for something we knew almost nothing about well 90+ % of us anyway.

Total shambles this has turned into and it is going to take an awful long time to sort out and get our country back on its feet again.




BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #143 on October 13, 2021, 03:40:56 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
CR.
Absolutely we could stay in the SM without being in the EU. Effectively, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are in that position.

Several leading Brexit supporters said that's what we were voting for in 2016. Farage repeatedly said "Wouldn't it be great if we were like Norway." Numerous others said there was no intention to leave the SM

Then in January 2017, May unilaterally announced that Govt policy was to leave the SM.

No asking the people if that's what they voted for. No attempt to get a consensus with other parties.

And Johnson spent the next two years insisting that we cut ourselves off from even alignment with the SM. Purely because it undermined May and paved his way to No10.

The effect of this on NI was known all along. And delibetately ignored. And this is where we are now. With Johnson insisting it is all the EU's fault.

An utter shit show.

tyke1962

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #144 on October 13, 2021, 03:46:29 pm by tyke1962 »
It seems to me that the whole political system in this country is totally broken .

What goes on today would never have been tolerated not only by the electorate but the political party's themselves even in the 90's or early 2000's .

My opinion is the 2008 financial crash and the lack of any great consequences for those involved seem to have opened up " well you can get away with anything now" .

There's more than a hint of the social and economic fall out from the crash leading us right to where this country is today .

Only my opinion mind .


The consensus amongst the people of this country shouldn't be to argue Tory or Labour , leaver or remainer or anything else the consensus should be to fix the political system so that it's population have a system worth voting for irrespective of who is in power .

This is the UK not 1930's Germany .

FPTP system of electing governments simply has to go .

The buying of political influence through donations needs massive regulation .

Newspapers , tv , radio , digital platforms including Facebook , Instagram and others need regulation with consequences for fake news etc .

This free for all mentality including corruption , lying , buying of democracy needs to end and end now .

Fix the political system please .


wilts rover

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #145 on October 13, 2021, 05:08:28 pm by wilts rover »
Unlikey that a government (and their financial backers) who came to power because of that system will want to change it tyke.

Just look at the comments from their supporters on this very page.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #146 on October 13, 2021, 05:20:49 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I'm sure the Labour Party will support a change in the voting system that gets them into power (if they ever get into power again).

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #147 on October 13, 2021, 07:06:53 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
I'm pretty sure a high proportion of leave voters wanted an end to freedom of movement in to the country, we can't ignore that.  The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed.

Many of the negative outcomes post brexit so far (and there aren't that many) are poor policy choices of the government not due to brexit.  An example would be lorry drivers. The government could allow them in without limit, they didn't and still haven't.

The Ireland issue still exists and still there is no real answer that suits all parties.  I still question if customs checks are really that important practically but the EU and UK governments will not budge on that seemingly.

tyke1962

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #148 on October 13, 2021, 07:26:10 pm by tyke1962 »
As the pressure ramps up on Johnson , energy crisis , shortages on our supermarket shelves and a million jobs nobody wants to do anymore etc etc .

I'm thinking to myself he's going to be bashing the EU for no other reason than to keep the heat off himself and place the EU as the devil .

This NI thing may well be only the beginning as he places the EU as the enemy and they are the ones to blame and not himself or his government and their total mismanagement of this thing .

This clown isn't the clown many people think he is .

He's a sharp operator and works an audience to his advantage .


BillyStubbsTears

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Re: The cost of Brexit
« Reply #149 on October 13, 2021, 07:51:44 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
"The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed."

Do you see the problem with this attitude?

A proportion of about half of UK voters wanted X. The EU with 500 million people to satisfy should have given them X.

 

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