Nationality Bill

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, without much fuss, the Tories have voted through this week a Bill that would enable Patel's Home Office to remove British citizenship from my wife without notice.

This being the Home Office that would not grant the British citizenship he had a right to to her half brother who was born and raised in Britain to a father who had lived and worked in Britain for over 30 years. That wrecked his dream of joining the RAF.

This being the Home Office that wrecked dozens of lives by illegally trying to deport Windrush Britons.

I cannot find words to fully express how much I loathe the attitude of the Tories on this subject.

[SydneyRover]

I admire your restraint Billy.

[drfchound]

Outraged.

[Sprotyrover]

I think you need  to calm down and look at the Bill
Your wife will only be losing her dual nationality in certain circumstances which will undoubtably not apply to her. We live in a democracy and before that bill becomes law it will have been changed and re worded several dozen times. Start by re wording your post by using the phrase could possibly!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.
If you don't mind, I won't take lectures from you on this, given that this doesn't potentially affect you, and given how the Home Office f**ked over my brother-in-law, depriving him of his rightful citizenship.

And given the fact that the same Home Office tried deporting Windrush descendants who had been born and brought up here, my take is that giving unrestricted powers to a Tory run Home Office on an issue like this is a chance that I wouldn't dream of taking. YOU might well assume that a Home secretary like Patel would always apply the rules fairly. But this is a woman who was only stopped from illegally deporting people by pro-bono work by lawyers. Lawyers who she then launched a hate campaign against, despite being told by the Met that right wing terrorists were plotting violence against them. So if you don't mind, I won't take assurances from you that the Home Office would always do the right thing. I prefer to see them controlled, not given unlimited power on an issue like this.

[phil old leake]

Now now sproty stop being all sensible about this

We all know that P Patel and this government hate everyone and are bigoted against everyone and everything and can’t wait to make everyone’s life miserable and sad and want to take away all our civil liberties
How dare you start to think like a person with a reasonable thought process
Why shouldn’t people like Abu Hamza be allowed to stay in this country and preach hatred and encourage terrorism for years and years
What a ridiculous thought that we should deal with them

[drfchound]

How can someone who lectures almost everyone demand that another poster refrains from lecturing him.

[belton rover]

Sproty.
If you don't mind, I won't take lectures from you on this, given that this doesn't potentially affect you, and given how the Home Office f**ked over my brother-in-law, depriving him of his rightful citizenship.

And given the fact that the same Home Office tried deporting Windrush descendants who had been born and brought up here, my take is that giving unrestricted powers to a Tory run Home Office on an issue like this is a chance that I wouldn't dream of taking. YOU might well assume that a Home secretary like Patel would always apply the rules fairly. But this is a woman who was only stopped from illegally deporting people by pro-bono work by lawyers. Lawyers who she then launched a hate campaign against, despite being told by the Met that right wing terrorists were plotting violence against them. So if you don't mind, I won't take assurances from you that the Home Office would always do the right thing. I prefer to see them controlled, not given unlimited power on an issue like this.

No more opinions please. Unless you unconditionally agree with, or have the same experience as Billy.

[Sprotyrover]

Even the lowly Sproty has had two Bills which were attached to Acts of Parliament amended. Both under the last Labour Government, its right that people should start blowing Klaxons but as i said earlier it's easy to get a Bill amended. And contrary to what Billy is alleging it's common practise for Governments to add various bills to Acts of Parliament as they move through the legal process,it happens all of the time.

[Ldr]

Meanwhile, without much fuss, the Tories have voted through this week a Bill that would enable Patel's Home Office to remove British citizenship from my wife without notice.

This being the Home Office that would not grant the British citizenship he had a right to to her half brother who was born and raised in Britain to a father who had lived and worked in Britain for over 30 years. That wrecked his dream of joining the RAF.

This being the Home Office that wrecked dozens of lives by illegally trying to deport Windrush Britons.

I cannot find words to fully express how much I loathe the attitude of the Tories on this subject.

Billy, seriously interested in this one, what gives the right to citizenship legally. Have no idea on that side of things

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.
The laws of a country determine who is eligible for citizenship. Some countries will claim you as a citizen if you tick certain boxes, even if you are blissfully unaware of it. Others force you to prove that you are a citizen.

I'll give you the two cases from my wife's family because they illustrate this.

Her father was Italian. Married an Englishwoman and moved to London. He received indefinite leave to remain. Settled down had a family. My wife was born in London. Never lived in Italy. Only ever had a UK passport. But we've found out recently by a roundabout route that she has dual nationality. Because her father registered her birth with the Italian authorities. And their policy is that anyone born of an Italian parent is Italian. I think the Irish have a similar attitude.

Her parents divorced. Her father met an Italian woman while visiting family. She moved to London. They got married and had a kid. So my wife's half brother is born and raised in London, to two Italian parents, one of whom has indefinite leave to remain. That lattet bit is crucial. Because under UK law, that gives him the right to claim UK citizenship.

Except my father in law had ling cancer when his son was 8 years old. Chaotic situation, with him refusing to accept he was ill and deciding to move the family back to Italy. Sold his London house in a rush. Cleared out loads of papers. Moved to Italy and died days later.

When my brother in law gets to 16, he decides he wants to move back to England and join the RAF. So he needed to claim citizenship. But we had no papers proving his dad had indefinite leave to remain. And the HO wouldn't budge. Said it was our responsibility to prove he had that leave if we wanted to claim UK citizenship.

So that's an example of the opposite. A country making it as hard as they possibly can for someone with a legal right to citizenship to actually claim it. And under this lot, if lives get f**ked up on the way, tough shit. bas**rds that they are. Which is why it scares the living daylights out of me that a nasty, vindictive piece of work like Patel is bring given even more rights to f**k up people's lives.

And it's not just me worried by it. Someone as far right as David Davis is up in arms about it. He submitted an amendment to remove the Home Secretary's power to remove citizenship. The Tories voted his amendment down.

[Sprotyrover]

What about our Brother in laws birth certificate if you are born here you are British! Why  didn't your mother in law keep his Uk passport valid? I think you are blaming the wrong people here! Did they register him as an Italian National, if they did that he would have lost his citizenship. Not your brother in laws fault but not the UK Governments fault either!

[Ldr]

That’s a complete piss take Billy, makes me ashamed

[Sprotyrover]

Oh by the way you don't have to be a British citizen to join the RAF
But you must have lived here for 5 years before you apply and in some circumstances 3 years! And that's how it is nothing to do with the Evil Tory party but a bit of common sense applied by the RAF.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

[SydneyRover]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

[drfchound]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

But apparently there was no written proof of nationality.
I am only guessing but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were lots of dubious claims from people who want to claim British nationality.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

What do you class as its own?

[SydneyRover]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

What do you class as its own?

those born in the country pud, with respect, who did you think it meant?

added

those born in the country and those given citizenship.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

What do you class as its own?

those born in the country pud, with respect, who did you think it meant?

added

those born in the country and those given citizenship.

And this is my point it is common in lots of countries that someone born in a country is not a citizen by right, it's not unique to the UK yet we portray it as being so.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty
You are wrong on several counts.

1) A child born in the UK to non-British parents does not automatically become a British citizen. They have to apply for registration, requiring proof that one parent had indefinite leave to remain. That was our stumbling block. We had no proof and couldn't find a way to establish it. The UK Govt appears to to keep any record of it.

As for the residency requirement to join the RAF, he failed on that because he had lived in Italy for the previous 8 years.

Once again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't lecture me on something we have been through, when you don't have the experience of dealing with it. Regardless of one person predictably liking your post, you don't know the facts of this situation.

The ultimate irony is that the kid would have had automatic right to citizenship in his own right if he'd lived in the UK to the age of ten. But his parents moved to Italy when he was 8 in the chaos of his dad's last few weeks of dying of cancer.

That wasn't taken into account by the HO, who were doing there best to make the whole process as difficult as possible. Although not for Russian kleptocrats who were donating to the Tory party. They were given British citizenship with ease.

[SydneyRover]

Regardless of that it's still reasonable to be outraged that a government would deliberately exclude and deport those that live in the country or that hold tacit citizenship of any kind. One would have hoped that a reasonable government would tip the scales to be inclusive rather than hunt them down and create a hostile environment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I find the whole citizenship quite fascinating. I always assumed you'd be a citizen of a country if born there but was massively wrong.

We speak of outrage in our country on this as if it's a major thing but it's commonplace in most countries and that surprised me.

It only becomes an outrage when a far right government denies citizenship to its own and starts deporting its own citizens pud.

What do you class as its own?

those born in the country pud, with respect, who did you think it meant?

added

those born in the country and those given citizenship.

And this is my point it is common in lots of countries that someone born in a country is not a citizen by right, it's not unique to the UK yet we portray it as being so.

Yes but the issue here is that the practical effect of the Tories' hostile environment at the HO was to make it impossible in my brother in law's case to claim the citizenship he was rightfully entitled to. They did this by placing the entire responsibility of proof on the applicant and not showing common sense.

And it led to far worse cases, where they actually deported the grown up children of the very Windrush generation that we'd welcomed with open arms under a previous Tory Govt when we needed cheap labour. Because they worked on the assumption, rigidly applied, that if you couldn't prove your status, that was your problem. Even if you'd been born, educated, married, worked and paid taxes and retired here. You have to experience it to realise how deeply offensive it is.

[Sprotyrover]

I could understand you being upset if your brother in law was non EU but he is and has had the right to live and work here for decades, I think you are a bit hysterical, stop making condescending remarks towards me if you don't mind, I do have personal experience re Nationality issues, but you are using the example of your brother in law to have a pop at the Government and in his case it is not applicable.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

It's a shame we didn't have your expert advice a few years ago, when the RAF were telling us he required a British passport to join, and the HO were telling us he didn't have the paperwork to get a British passport. You could have explained to them why they were wrong and you were right.

I'm sorry if you find my remarks condescending. I find yours insulting and ignorant on a subject that is personally raw.

[albie]

The Nationality Bill, worrying that it is, is one piece in a bigger jigsaw.

Alongside it, the Police Bill criminalises dissent to an extent incompatible with a democracy.
There is a video primer from George Monbiot here;
https://youtu.be/eOSpKymVbDY

These are extreme measures, and introduced with little debate, or media attention.
Labour should be all over this, but remain strangely silent.

[SydneyRover]

Agree with all of that Albie the laws here were changed (I keep saying that conservative governments swap the worst ideas) as protesters were getting the upper hand trying to save the planet and trivial stuff like that, what is missing is a plan of the path to government. All this takes time to change and as this has built up from the dominance of right wing governments over 10 years, it could possible take 10 years of centre left governments to reverse, but it has to start somewhere.

Please tell me how this and much much more can be fought successfully from opposition?

[albie]

Syd,

In opposition, Labour should take all the extra parliamentary steps that bring their agenda into the political debate.
This is the main purpose of an opposition when the HoC numbers mean that the parliamentary approach is limited.

Any initiatives which push these discussions into the media spotlight, so greater understanding is more widely shared.

This includes working with the trade unions on the implications for industrial action in the Police Bill.
Similarly, making common cause with those interest groups likely to be marginalised under the legislation, to protect their legitimate concerns in a democracy.

Using the capacity building provided by these relationships to grow the movement, so that Labour go into the 2024 election with more members, and finance, than were available in 2019.

I don't really know what you mean with your 10 year reversal option for a centre right government.
Starmer was planning to whip to abstain on the second reading of the Police Bill, until pressure won a late change to oppose.
Maybe you are talking about Australia here.

Remember the next objective for the Tories will be to replace the Human Rights legislation with something luke warm and meaningless.
The combined objectives of the Nationality Bill, the Police Bill and HR are interlinked, and will reduce civic capacity in politics.

Strange that the "freezepeach" Tories seem very quiet on these issues.

[SydneyRover]

Albie you appear to take each step that labour take as a reading on Starmer's popularity instead of looking at the big picture. You absolutely refuse to show the way to victory from your view of the world. Starmer is still dealing with the fallout from the last election the absolute dog's breakfast left to clean up, looking at his steady gains he appears to be doing a reasonable job, not earth shattering but gains non the less.

Starmer's job is to try and rebuild the party and set a path to put the party within striking distance of a win, such a long way to go from the hollowed out shell handed to him. If corbyn had made gains he would be still in the job.

I'll try again, looking at the last period of non-labour governments in the UK tell me where on the political spectrum do you think the next government will sit. It's a bit like a team rebuilding after things didn't quite go to plan, you have to have a realistic target that those that support you can believe, it would have been of zero use for the owners at the last meeting with fans to tell us that with a bit of tweaking during the break we're going into the championship.  Anything outside of centre left would take a second coming in my view.