Racism and football violence

[Spilsby Red]

The FA are quick to complain about other countries against our players.
We need to get our shop in order first. To many clubs reporting racist comments. The idiots that caused mayhem at the euro final. Glad the national team have to play behind closed doors. These are still big issues in this country. We have no rights to criticise other countries when we are a problem. Again it’s a minority. But they spoil it.
Love the game, love each other.

[normal rules]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

[normal rules]

And the ridiculous thing is the ban is for a uefa game next June. Nations league.
England play more games in the meantime with crowds.
Toothless ban .

[Pancho Regan]

What happened at Wembley for the Euro final was a disgrace.
It was a total failure of security, which in today's climate simply beggars belief.

[Campsall rover]

The FA are quick to complain about other countries against our players.
We need to get our shop in order first. To many clubs reporting racist comments. The idiots that caused mayhem at the euro final. Glad the national team have to play behind closed doors. These are still big issues in this country. We have no rights to criticise other countries when we are a problem. Again it%u2019s a minority. But they spoil it.
Love the game, love each other.

You are quite correct. We must get our own house in order.

Having said that Hungary and many Eastern European countries have an even bigger problem with ref to racism.

Some of their governments are not even attempting it would seem to deal with it.

[DRNaith]

I'm in favour of coming down very hard on this. Bans at club or national level where necessary.

Yes, it may be seen as spoiling it for the innocent majority, but if it knocks it on the head it should make it more enjoyable for everyone in the long-term

[SydneyRover]

There has been so much work done in the UK to curb violence in football, where were those experts, this incident needs to be investigated to find the failures and stop it recurring.

Surely there is a strategy meeting before big matches where police look at the numbers, the numbers coming to the area and those that would be unable to gain entry etc.

There was a failure in 'intelligence' to predict, prepare and act to prevent.

Yes those involved need to be if possible identified and held to account but there were many failures that allowed it.

If this was a demo or a protest the home office would be screaming to extend police powers and law changes to restrict the movement of people in some way.

[normal rules]

You can have all the prep in the world for big events at Wembley but you cannot plan nor legislate for corrupt stewards who took back handlers to let anyone in. Then there is the disabled access which is a free for all by all accounts .

Those that got in that day were part of a social media group which had organised a Wembley jib.

Take the keepmoat for example. The fire doors which we exit the stadium from after every game are easy to open. They have to be for fire regs. If a few thousand rovers turned up to a big game without tickets for example, you would only need a couple inside to overpower stewards to open the fire doors and hey presto. Not that it would happen though thankfully .
This is what the authorities are really up against at Wembley but on a much bigger scale.
What has to happen on big international games is there has to be an outer ring and inner security ring at Wembley.
 You should not be allowed onto Wembley way itself unless you have shown a ticket. This is the next step and it will happen.

[DRCraig]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

very much so. Near to me, Bolton v Wigan. They really did show themselves up. Every time I see or hear about things like that I start to think, Ban away fans.

[SydneyRover]

You can have all the prep in the world for big events at Wembley but you cannot plan nor legislate for corrupt stewards who took back handlers to let anyone in. Then there is the disabled access which is a free for all by all accounts .

Those that got in that day were part of a social media group which had organised a Wembley jib.

Take the keepmoat for example. The fire doors which we exit the stadium from after every game are easy to open. They have to be for fire regs. If a few thousand rovers turned up to a big game without tickets for example, you would only need a couple inside to overpower stewards to open the fire doors and hey presto. Not that it would happen though thankfully .
This is what the authorities are really up against at Wembley but on a much bigger scale.
What has to happen on big international games is there has to be an outer ring and inner security ring at Wembley.
 You should not be allowed onto Wembley way itself unless you have shown a ticket. This is the next step and it will happen.

I beg to differ if a guy on a third tier football forum knows all this why doesn't the police and all the others that need to know.

[silent majority]

There has been so much work done in the UK to curb violence in football, where were those experts, this incident needs to be investigated to find the failures and stop it recurring.

Surely there is a strategy meeting before big matches where police look at the numbers, the numbers coming to the area and those that would be unable to gain entry etc.

There was a failure in 'intelligence' to predict, prepare and act to prevent.

Yes those involved need to be if possible identified and held to account but there were many failures that allowed it.

If this was a demo or a protest the home office would be screaming to extend police powers and law changes to restrict the movement of people in some way.

Not sure about your logic here Sydney. On the one hand you claim that there's been a lot done to curb violence at football matches (mostly by introducing laws that don't impact on other sections of society) and then you come to the conclusion that if it was a different type of demo the Home Office would be demanding extra powers to restrict movement. For a section of society that is already over policed that seems to be a bit odd. Furthermore, this government is pushing through some new Police powers, commonly known as the Police, Crime, and sentencing bill, which effectively hands power to the Police to shut down any form of protest at will.


For anybody else reading this thread you may want to understand the picture a little better than what you do. Firstly those causing issues on the day weren't England fans as such. They may have been football fans but most people that follow England already had their tickets, those without were chancers.

I'm not suggesting the FA and Met Police are blameless, far from it, but it was a UEFA competition and as such the responsibility lies with the competition organiser. UEFA rent Wembley, and other major grounds, when they hold a competition in your country, and they have their own security teams who should coordinate the required responses. I happen to know the Head of Security for the England team and he told us that he was never approached about any of the games that had been held during this competition. 

The picture is a lot more complicated than it appears.

[silent majority]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

very much so. Near to me, Bolton v Wigan. They really did show themselves up. Every time I see or hear about things like that I start to think, Ban away fans.

That's not the case. Banning orders and football arrests are at an all time low.

[Colin C No.3]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

very much so. Near to me, Bolton v Wigan. They really did show themselves up. Every time I see or hear about things like that I start to think, Ban away fans.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

The majority of supporters can ‘see’ the games where there is likely to be a potential for trouble so why can’t the authorities?

When a Burnley v Blackburn fixture comes up, the away fans are not allowed to travel by independent means. They can only travel into the town via dedicated coaches. The M65 is closed to all traffic for an hour before the game & an hour after the game. The coaches are escorted by the police there & back. It sounds draconian but the people of those two towns & the out lying towns have ‘accepted’ any disruption & inconvenience caused because the alternative would be mayhem, carnage & violence on a massive scale due to the ‘bad blood’ between these two towns.

Contrast that with Liverpool v Everton games where supporters from both teams can be seen mixing on the terraces.

To simply say “Ban all away fans” is punishing ‘the good’ due to the behaviour of ‘the bad’.

[silent majority]

You can have all the prep in the world for big events at Wembley but you cannot plan nor legislate for corrupt stewards who took back handlers to let anyone in. Then there is the disabled access which is a free for all by all accounts .

Those that got in that day were part of a social media group which had organised a Wembley jib.

Take the keepmoat for example. The fire doors which we exit the stadium from after every game are easy to open. They have to be for fire regs. If a few thousand rovers turned up to a big game without tickets for example, you would only need a couple inside to overpower stewards to open the fire doors and hey presto. Not that it would happen though thankfully .
This is what the authorities are really up against at Wembley but on a much bigger scale.
What has to happen on big international games is there has to be an outer ring and inner security ring at Wembley.
 You should not be allowed onto Wembley way itself unless you have shown a ticket. This is the next step and it will happen.

You're very much correct that there has to be two cordons surrounding a stadium holding a major game, either in the Euro's or at a World Cup. For anybody that's been to competitions in other countries that would be very obvious.

The problem for Wembley is that it is now situated in a very complicated and compact area with a mix of residential and commercial operations. Furthermore the steps leading up to the stadium cause further issues as you can't put a cordon on a staircase!

That in turn means any cordon must also have to surround the adjacent properties meaning a loss of revenue and difficulties for residents accessing their homes. For that reason alone you'll never see a major competition held at Wembley again.

[SydneyRover]

There has been so much work done in the UK to curb violence in football, where were those experts, this incident needs to be investigated to find the failures and stop it recurring.

Surely there is a strategy meeting before big matches where police look at the numbers, the numbers coming to the area and those that would be unable to gain entry etc.

There was a failure in 'intelligence' to predict, prepare and act to prevent.

Yes those involved need to be if possible identified and held to account but there were many failures that allowed it.

If this was a demo or a protest the home office would be screaming to extend police powers and law changes to restrict the movement of people in some way.

Not sure about your logic here Sydney. On the one hand you claim that there's been a lot done to curb violence at football matches (mostly by introducing laws that don't impact on other sections of society) and then you come to the conclusion that if it was a different type of demo the Home Office would be demanding extra powers to restrict movement. For a section of society that is already over policed that seems to be a bit odd. Furthermore, this government is pushing through some new Police powers, commonly known as the Police, Crime, and sentencing bill, which effectively hands power to the Police to shut down any form of protest at will.


For anybody else reading this thread you may want to understand the picture a little better than what you do. Firstly those causing issues on the day weren't England fans as such. They may have been football fans but most people that follow England already had their tickets, those without were chancers.

I'm not suggesting the FA and Met Police are blameless, far from it, but it was a UEFA competition and as such the responsibility lies with the competition organiser. UEFA rent Wembley, and other major grounds, when they hold a competition in your country, and they have their own security teams who should coordinate the required responses. I happen to know the Head of Security for the England team and he told us that he was never approached about any of the games that had been held during this competition. 

The picture is a lot more complicated than it appears.

I haven't discussed laws that cover football fans, are there any?

I was thinking about the recent Insulate Britain protests where the home office jumped straight in to stop the protest, the speed of the reaction was the major thing in my mind and yes they are talking about changing or bringing in new legislation.

My references to a lot being done to curb violence was to remind that there is expertise out there but it doesn't appear that this was drawn upon.

[SydneyRover]

You can have all the prep in the world for big events at Wembley but you cannot plan nor legislate for corrupt stewards who took back handlers to let anyone in. Then there is the disabled access which is a free for all by all accounts .

Those that got in that day were part of a social media group which had organised a Wembley jib.

Take the keepmoat for example. The fire doors which we exit the stadium from after every game are easy to open. They have to be for fire regs. If a few thousand rovers turned up to a big game without tickets for example, you would only need a couple inside to overpower stewards to open the fire doors and hey presto. Not that it would happen though thankfully .
This is what the authorities are really up against at Wembley but on a much bigger scale.
What has to happen on big international games is there has to be an outer ring and inner security ring at Wembley.
 You should not be allowed onto Wembley way itself unless you have shown a ticket. This is the next step and it will happen.

You're very much correct that there has to be two cordons surrounding a stadium holding a major game, either in the Euro's or at a World Cup. For anybody that's been to competitions in other countries that would be very obvious.

The problem for Wembley is that it is now situated in a very complicated and compact area with a mix of residential and commercial operations. Furthermore the steps leading up to the stadium cause further issues as you can't put a cordon on a staircase!

That in turn means any cordon must also have to surround the adjacent properties meaning a loss of revenue and difficulties for residents accessing their homes. For that reason alone you'll never see a major competition held at Wembley again.

This is quite revealing SM it appears that again that those with expertise in preventing football violence were either not consulted in the design and location of the stadium or their views were overridden.

[silent majority]

Sydney, there's a whole host of additional powers that the Police have at their disposal that are not there for members of the general public, most of that is detailed in the 'Football Spectators Act 1988' and the Football Offences Act 1991 and others added since then.

Within football circles we have been dismissive of the actions of the Police with regard to the 'Insulate Britain' protestors. If that had have been football supporters it would have been over and done with within minutes and they'd all be on banning orders!!

For specific powers cast your eye down this;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

[normal rules]

You can have all the prep in the world for big events at Wembley but you cannot plan nor legislate for corrupt stewards who took back handlers to let anyone in. Then there is the disabled access which is a free for all by all accounts .

Those that got in that day were part of a social media group which had organised a Wembley jib.

Take the keepmoat for example. The fire doors which we exit the stadium from after every game are easy to open. They have to be for fire regs. If a few thousand rovers turned up to a big game without tickets for example, you would only need a couple inside to overpower stewards to open the fire doors and hey presto. Not that it would happen though thankfully .
This is what the authorities are really up against at Wembley but on a much bigger scale.
What has to happen on big international games is there has to be an outer ring and inner security ring at Wembley.
 You should not be allowed onto Wembley way itself unless you have shown a ticket. This is the next step and it will happen.

I beg to differ if a guy on a third tier football forum knows all this why doesn't the police and all the others that need to know.

It was found out in the subsequent days afterwards , which has been all over the internet. If you know where to look.

[normal rules]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

very much so. Near to me, Bolton v Wigan. They really did show themselves up. Every time I see or hear about things like that I start to think, Ban away fans.

That's not the case. Banning orders and football arrests are at an all time low.

I would not like to trust banning orders and arrests as a yardstick for the current levels of football disorder we have in the uk.
You only have to look at YouTube every weekend to see fights here there and everywhere. Games are not being policed like they used to.not enough cops and too many more important things to be looking at .

[SydneyRover]

Sydney, there's a whole host of additional powers that the Police have at their disposal that are not there for members of the general public, most of that is detailed in the 'Football Spectators Act 1988' and the Football Offences Act 1991 and others added since then.

Within football circles we have been dismissive of the actions of the Police with regard to the 'Insulate Britain' protestors. If that had have been football supporters it would have been over and done with within minutes and they'd all be on banning orders!!

For specific powers cast your eye down this;

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

thanks SM I haven't seen that, what I'm getting at, not clearly it seems, is that there is a wealth of knowledge built up over decades within and without the police which has all but taken violence out of English football. Has all this been pushed down the list of priorities because of the success?

[normal rules]

You don’t have to look too far so to see evidence of fv this season. And I suspect there will have been little or no arrests/ banning orders from any of these encounters.
Mufc v Leeds
Bolton v Lincoln
Eng v Hungary
West Brom v Millwall
Millwall v Blackpool
Rotherham v rovers
HUD’s v Hull
Burnley v Arsenal
Gills v Wigan
Millwall v Luton
Millwall v qpr
Hull v sheff Utd
Macclesfield v congleton ( don’t laugh. The YouTube vid of this shows probably one of the more tastier tear ups between two sets of people) no plod in sight, and it goes on for some time.

These were just vids I found on a basic search. Many would not have made the news or attracted much police attention. I tell you, fv is back on the up. The authorities are blind to it though.

[normal rules]

And rovers have to go to Lincoln in a few weeks.
I guarantee there will be bother there.
That’s not based on intel or inside knowledge. That’s based on experience and gut feeling.
Rovers went there for a pre season “friendly” a few years ago and all hell broke loose on the high st. This year will be no different sadly.

[VivaRovers]

Firstly those causing issues on the day weren't England fans as such. They may have been football fans but most people that follow England already had their tickets, those without were chancers.

Wait, so all those people in England shirts, celebrating England reaching a final and trying to get into an England game weren't England fans?

Come on, you can't just label someone who hadn't been to an England game before as a 'chancer'. If you want to tackle the problems that happened on the day, you really need to recognise them as fans of the national team (whether they're the sort of fans you want or not), otherwise you're just disassociating yourself from a growing problem for pure ease.

[Padge_DRFC]

Shame about the 10s of thousands that behave. Rotherham v Rovers mentioned above. First time in ages this passed by with no issues minus the 2 morons making fun of the Rotherham fan.

[DMnumber4]

Not a problem confined solely to football. Look at that muppet who managed to get on to the cricket pitch on three separate occasions in the England v India test series.

He was up on an assault charge and then gate crashed the NFL at Tottenham on Sunday

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports/cricket/article/jarvo-69-bypasses-security-again-infamous-cricket-pitch-invader-daniel-jarvis-gatecrashes-nfl-match-in-london-watch/824333

[normal rules]

Shame about the 10s of thousands that behave. Rotherham v Rovers mentioned above. First time in ages this passed by with no issues minus the 2 morons making fun of the Rotherham fan.

The video online is not inside the ground. It’s on a local estate with groups looking for each other for a  tear up.

[normal rules]

https://youtu.be/uagvCOpihqo

[silent majority]

Firstly those causing issues on the day weren't England fans as such. They may have been football fans but most people that follow England already had their tickets, those without were chancers.

Wait, so all those people in England shirts, celebrating England reaching a final and trying to get into an England game weren't England fans?

Come on, you can't just label someone who hadn't been to an England game before as a 'chancer'. If you want to tackle the problems that happened on the day, you really need to recognise them as fans of the national team (whether they're the sort of fans you want or not), otherwise you're just disassociating yourself from a growing problem for pure ease.

No, I'm going to disagree with you viva.

I'm talking about the England supporter membership scheme, you don't get into that without paying fees and having a clean police record. There's very little, if any, trouble with those supporter. Away tickets are strictly controlled and only issued to those members.

Wearing an England shirt doesn't make you an England supporter, not in my book.

Not sure what you mean by a growing problem either, there's no evidence that that is the case, quite the opposite.

[silent majority]

Football violence seems to be on the up again for some reason.

very much so. Near to me, Bolton v Wigan. They really did show themselves up. Every time I see or hear about things like that I start to think, Ban away fans.

That's not the case. Banning orders and football arrests are at an all time low.

I would not like to trust banning orders and arrests as a yardstick for the current levels of football disorder we have in the uk.
You only have to look at YouTube every weekend to see fights here there and everywhere. Games are not being policed like they used to.not enough cops and too many more important things to be looking at .

That's an odd thing to say, don't use official statistics to gauge the level of violence, just Google it or check on YouTube.

Not sure where you get the information about Policing of games from, there's no evidence to support that either. Police bills are still at a very high level throughout football, and there are schemes where we hope that level will come down, but its been a slow process so far and this season levels seem to be back at their highest.

[Muttley]

https://youtu.be/uagvCOpihqo

You've got an odd definition of football violence.