Owen Paterson

[wilts rover]

3 years to go before the next GE I'd suggest the polls are pretty meaningless myself  .

I wouldn't underestimate Bunter personally .

I wouldn't overestimate him either - or the polls.

There is a reason the Daily Mail have turned against him - and you don't survive very long as a Tory leader if the Mail don't like you and a load of MP's think they may be in danger.

[Bentley Bullet]

Wilts, elections aren't won on wishful thinking.

[tyke1962]

All true Tyke. Which is why the mantra from the Left that Labour is unelectable under Starmer is nonsense. Anything can happen in the next few years. A month ago, the Tories were 5% ahead in the average polls. Today Labour are ahead from the first time since the vaccine programme began.

And the predictions are for a sharp hit to real pay in 2022. With that and the continuing stench of corruption around Johnson's mob, it's hard to see where an immediate reversal is coming from.

If folk like you would compromise, Labour could be up by double digits this time next year. That is, if you really want to see the Tories put on the back foot. Do you? Really?

I won't be voting for either of them Billy as both leaders and their party's are equally despicable in my view .

My view is obviously the key component given it's my vote .

The majority of people in this country deserve far better than what's currently on offer .

To have even the slightest chance of winning an election then Labour would have to be in the pockets of big business and more or less commit to not rocking the boat too much .

Compound that by having such an odious snake as leader of the Labour Party then that hardly inspires myself to what you term compromise .

Keith's shown no appetite to compromise and he's distanced himself as far as possible from the radical change Corbyn stood for despite a leadership campaign promising to do so .

I will play no part in a Labour Party playing the game for a sniff of power .

If Keith can show me over the next two to three years he's willing to be far more radical then I could be won over enough to vote for Labour .

As things stand today absolutely not .

[SydneyRover]

All true Tyke. Which is why the mantra from the Left that Labour is unelectable under Starmer is nonsense. Anything can happen in the next few years. A month ago, the Tories were 5% ahead in the average polls. Today Labour are ahead from the first time since the vaccine programme began.

And the predictions are for a sharp hit to real pay in 2022. With that and the continuing stench of corruption around Johnson's mob, it's hard to see where an immediate reversal is coming from.

If folk like you would compromise, Labour could be up by double digits this time next year. That is, if you really want to see the Tories put on the back foot. Do you? Really?

I won't be voting for either of them Billy as both leaders and their party's are equally despicable in my view .

My view is obviously the key component given it's my vote .

The majority of people in this country deserve far better than what's currently on offer .

To have even the slightest chance of winning an election then Labour would have to be in the pockets of big business and more or less commit to not rocking the boat too much .

Compound that by having such an odious snake as leader of the Labour Party then that hardly inspires myself to what you term compromise .

Keith's shown no appetite to compromise and he's distanced himself as far as possible from the radical change Corbyn stood for despite a leadership campaign promising to do so .

I will play no part in a Labour Party playing the game for a sniff of power .

If Keith can show me over the next two to three years he's willing to be far more radical then I could be won over enough to vote for Labour .

As things stand today absolutely not .

From what you've posted it sounds like you only voted for labour once since you turned 18.

[Filo]

All true Tyke. Which is why the mantra from the Left that Labour is unelectable under Starmer is nonsense. Anything can happen in the next few years. A month ago, the Tories were 5% ahead in the average polls. Today Labour are ahead from the first time since the vaccine programme began.

And the predictions are for a sharp hit to real pay in 2022. With that and the continuing stench of corruption around Johnson's mob, it's hard to see where an immediate reversal is coming from.

If folk like you would compromise, Labour could be up by double digits this time next year. That is, if you really want to see the Tories put on the back foot. Do you? Really?

I won't be voting for either of them Billy as both leaders and their party's are equally despicable in my view .

My view is obviously the key component given it's my vote .

The majority of people in this country deserve far better than what's currently on offer .

To have even the slightest chance of winning an election then Labour would have to be in the pockets of big business and more or less commit to not rocking the boat too much .

Compound that by having such an odious snake as leader of the Labour Party then that hardly inspires myself to what you term compromise .

Keith's shown no appetite to compromise and he's distanced himself as far as possible from the radical change Corbyn stood for despite a leadership campaign promising to do so .

I will play no part in a Labour Party playing the game for a sniff of power .

If Keith can show me over the next two to three years he's willing to be far more radical then I could be won over enough to vote for Labour .

As things stand today absolutely not .

A true Trade Unionist would never vote, or not vote in your case to enable a Tory Govt

[tyke1962]

All true Tyke. Which is why the mantra from the Left that Labour is unelectable under Starmer is nonsense. Anything can happen in the next few years. A month ago, the Tories were 5% ahead in the average polls. Today Labour are ahead from the first time since the vaccine programme began.

And the predictions are for a sharp hit to real pay in 2022. With that and the continuing stench of corruption around Johnson's mob, it's hard to see where an immediate reversal is coming from.

If folk like you would compromise, Labour could be up by double digits this time next year. That is, if you really want to see the Tories put on the back foot. Do you? Really?

I won't be voting for either of them Billy as both leaders and their party's are equally despicable in my view .

My view is obviously the key component given it's my vote .

The majority of people in this country deserve far better than what's currently on offer .

To have even the slightest chance of winning an election then Labour would have to be in the pockets of big business and more or less commit to not rocking the boat too much .

Compound that by having such an odious snake as leader of the Labour Party then that hardly inspires myself to what you term compromise .

Keith's shown no appetite to compromise and he's distanced himself as far as possible from the radical change Corbyn stood for despite a leadership campaign promising to do so .

I will play no part in a Labour Party playing the game for a sniff of power .

If Keith can show me over the next two to three years he's willing to be far more radical then I could be won over enough to vote for Labour .

As things stand today absolutely not .

A true Trade Unionist would never vote, or not vote in your case to enable a Tory Govt

I think you'll find that Trade Unions and the Labour Party are two separate entities and have been for years .

The fairy tale of the third way saw to that .

The third way fairy tale that gave you 2008 .

The fairy tale that gave you the finance and service industry .

A race to the bottom for jobs in post industrial towns .

One of my favourite songs is " Won't be fooled again " by The Who .

I certainly won't be fooled again by a snotty middle class party who took my vote for granted and sneered at me for not wanting to remain in the EU .

It's a toss up who I hate the most , Tories or Labour .

So how that personally lends itself to enabling Tory governments is beyond me .

[SydneyRover]

???????????????????????????????

[scawsby steve]

If we're to believe what polls are saying during mid-term parliaments, then you can all get ready for Trump as President again in 2024.

[drfchound]

I find it hilarious that when the polls favour the poster they are invariably deemed to be right but are derided when they don’t favour the posters views.

[SydneyRover]

I find it hilarious that when the polls favour the poster they are invariably deemed to be right but are derided when they don’t favour the posters views.

Where did that happen hound?

[tyke1962]

I find it hilarious that when the polls favour the poster they are invariably deemed to be right but are derided when they don’t favour the posters views.

Hound when you dig down in to the weeds Labour probably have a one point lead over the Tories .

That in my opinion is how low the bar is now set although the Labour pant wetters clearly see it differently .

Any kind of alternative policy coupled with a solid leader who was capable would have Labour at least 10 points ahead as a minimum given the times we are currently living in .

The polls don't actually represent how poorly the government are doing they actually represent just how bad the opposition are .

[SydneyRover]

pity you can't offer any alternative tyke, except your wailing.

[drfchound]

Thinking about this tyke, it is surprising that Labour don’t have an insurmountable lead in the polls ………. given how bad the government are.

[Bentley Bullet]

I think Hound's point is the opinion polls are only taken seriously by the Labour supporters on this forum when they swing in Labours favour but are regarded as inaccurate when they don't!

[SydneyRover]

I think Hound's point is the opinion polls are only taken seriously by the Labour supporters on this forum when they swing in Labours favour but are regarded as inaccurate when they don't!

same applies to you then bb, show where and when.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

"The times we are living in..."

You might have forgotten, but some truly exceptional things have happened, these past couple of years.

Johnson got four huge boosts over the past 24 months.

He won the 2019 Election, against the most shambolic Labour campaign in 36 years.

He got Brexit done. (Ok, he didn't really, but he signed a piece of paper saying he had.) That was a promise he'd made to people like you who wanted us out. And many of those people are firmly committed to him through thick and thin after that.

He got the initial "rally round the flag" boost in support when COVID first hit.

He got a boost when we rolled out a successful vaccination programme.

Those four events all lifted the Tories in the polls. Three of those four are happenings on a scale that are unprecedented in any of our memories.

The problem with saying the Opposition should be X% ahead is twofold.

1) It totally ignored that context.

2) In your case, it is predicated on assuming that if Labour was further to the Left, the country would fall inove with it. It's the fallacy of assuming that most people think like you. When imfact, maybe 15% of the country does.

Finally, yes, Labour is currently maybe 1% ahead in the polls. The point is that six weeks ago they were 6% behind. There's been a big shift in momentum.

Now of course, that may not persist. But it's unlikely, short of a successful war, that anything is going to come along to give Johnson the polling boosts that he's had for the past two years. We have a bloody tough 2022 coming up. And the longer Johnson stays on No10, the more opportunity he has for spectacularly showing us how unfit he is to be there.

Like I keep saying, folk on the Left were comforting themselves earlier this year by saying: Starmer is unelectable, therefore it's my duty to bring things to a head by deserting. That argument is blown out of the water by the current movement of the polls. The question for them now is: Do you want a broadly left of centre Govt? Or are you going to stick with the argument that if you can't have it your way, you might as well have Johnson?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think Hound's point is the opinion polls are only taken seriously by the Labour supporters on this forum when they swing in Labours favour but are regarded as inaccurate when they don't!

If that's the argument, you two Self Righteous Brothers will have no problem finding loads of examples of people saying the polls are inaccurate when they swing against Labour.

In your own time...

[tyke1962]

pity you can't offer any alternative tyke, except your wailing.

Well it's remarkable that you'd introduce that in to this debate Sydney given the general consensus is nobody actually knows what the Labour Party of today actually stand for .

[Bentley Bullet]

I think Hound's point is the opinion polls are only taken seriously by the Labour supporters on this forum when they swing in Labours favour but are regarded as inaccurate when they don't!

If that's the argument, you two Self Righteous Brothers will have no problem finding loads of examples of people saying the polls are inaccurate when they swing against Labour.

In your own time...

"Self Righteous Brothers", Eeh, I don't know how you think of them!

Of course, I never said there were "loads" of examples, simply because there aren't many examples where Labour have gained in the polls recently! But then you know that, don't you!

If I can be arsed to waste my time looking for examples I will, but meanwhile, I'll just wait until you do it again when Labour slip back in the next lot of opinion polls!

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

"The times we are living in..."

You might have forgotten, but some truly exceptional things have happened, these past couple of years.

Johnson got four huge boosts over the past 24 months.

He won the 2019 Election, against the most shambolic Labour campaign in 36 years.

He got Brexit done. (Ok, he didn't really, but he signed a piece of paper saying he had.) That was a promise he'd made to people like you who wanted us out. And many of those people are firmly committed to him through thick and thin after that.

He got the initial "rally round the flag" boost in support when COVID first hit.

He got a boost when we rolled out a successful vaccination programme.

Those four events all lifted the Tories in the polls. Three of those four are happenings on a scale that are unprecedented in any of our memories.

The problem with saying the Opposition should be X% ahead is twofold.

1) It totally ignored that context.

2) In your case, it is predicated on assuming that if Labour was further to the Left, the country would fall inove with it. It's the fallacy of assuming that most people think like you. When imfact, maybe 15% of the country does.

Finally, yes, Labour is currently maybe 1% ahead in the polls. The point is that six weeks ago they were 6% behind. There's been a big shift in momentum.

Now of course, that may not persist. But it's unlikely, short of a successful war, that anything is going to come along to give Johnson the polling boosts that he's had for the past two years. We have a bloody tough 2022 coming up. And the longer Johnson stays on No10, the more opportunity he has for spectacularly showing us how unfit he is to be there.

Like I keep saying, folk on the Left were comforting themselves earlier this year by saying: Starmer is unelectable, therefore it's my duty to bring things to a head by deserting. That argument is blown out of the water by the current movement of the polls. The question for them now is: Do you want a broadly left of centre Govt? Or are you going to stick with the argument that if you can't have it your way, you might as well have Johnson?

The only way Keith will be PM is if the Tories tank the economy .

All the other stuff going on is a complete side show .

The last government to tank the economy was the Labour Party in 2008 .

Sleaze didn't kill Major's government in the mid 90's but black Wednesday did .

If you are expecting some perfect storm that gets Keith elected as PM I'd suggest you think again Billy .

The Tory party is way more ruthless and cleverer than the opposition and will dump Bunter as they did Thatcher if they need to .

Never mind the Tories failings what have you got that's so special then bro ?

[SydneyRover]

Tyke.

"The times we are living in..."

You might have forgotten, but some truly exceptional things have happened, these past couple of years.

Johnson got four huge boosts over the past 24 months.

He won the 2019 Election, against the most shambolic Labour campaign in 36 years.

He got Brexit done. (Ok, he didn't really, but he signed a piece of paper saying he had.) That was a promise he'd made to people like you who wanted us out. And many of those people are firmly committed to him through thick and thin after that.

He got the initial "rally round the flag" boost in support when COVID first hit.

He got a boost when we rolled out a successful vaccination programme.

Those four events all lifted the Tories in the polls. Three of those four are happenings on a scale that are unprecedented in any of our memories.

The problem with saying the Opposition should be X% ahead is twofold.

1) It totally ignored that context.

2) In your case, it is predicated on assuming that if Labour was further to the Left, the country would fall inove with it. It's the fallacy of assuming that most people think like you. When imfact, maybe 15% of the country does.

Finally, yes, Labour is currently maybe 1% ahead in the polls. The point is that six weeks ago they were 6% behind. There's been a big shift in momentum.

Now of course, that may not persist. But it's unlikely, short of a successful war, that anything is going to come along to give Johnson the polling boosts that he's had for the past two years. We have a bloody tough 2022 coming up. And the longer Johnson stays on No10, the more opportunity he has for spectacularly showing us how unfit he is to be there.

Like I keep saying, folk on the Left were comforting themselves earlier this year by saying: Starmer is unelectable, therefore it's my duty to bring things to a head by deserting. That argument is blown out of the water by the current movement of the polls. The question for them now is: Do you want a broadly left of centre Govt? Or are you going to stick with the argument that if you can't have it your way, you might as well have Johnson?

The only way Keith will be PM is if the Tories tank the economy .

All the other stuff going on is a complete side show .

The last government to tank the economy was the Labour Party in 2008 .

Sleaze didn't kill Major's government in the mid 90's but black Wednesday did .

If you are expecting some perfect storm that gets Keith elected as PM I'd suggest you think again Billy .

The Tory party is way more ruthless and cleverer than the opposition and will dump Bunter as they did Thatcher if they need to .

Never mind the Tories failings what have you got that's so special then bro ?

The ramblings of a jilted lover, labour are now to blame for the gfc

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

"The times we are living in..."

You might have forgotten, but some truly exceptional things have happened, these past couple of years.

Johnson got four huge boosts over the past 24 months.

He won the 2019 Election, against the most shambolic Labour campaign in 36 years.

He got Brexit done. (Ok, he didn't really, but he signed a piece of paper saying he had.) That was a promise he'd made to people like you who wanted us out. And many of those people are firmly committed to him through thick and thin after that.

He got the initial "rally round the flag" boost in support when COVID first hit.

He got a boost when we rolled out a successful vaccination programme.

Those four events all lifted the Tories in the polls. Three of those four are happenings on a scale that are unprecedented in any of our memories.

The problem with saying the Opposition should be X% ahead is twofold.

1) It totally ignored that context.

2) In your case, it is predicated on assuming that if Labour was further to the Left, the country would fall inove with it. It's the fallacy of assuming that most people think like you. When imfact, maybe 15% of the country does.

Finally, yes, Labour is currently maybe 1% ahead in the polls. The point is that six weeks ago they were 6% behind. There's been a big shift in momentum.

Now of course, that may not persist. But it's unlikely, short of a successful war, that anything is going to come along to give Johnson the polling boosts that he's had for the past two years. We have a bloody tough 2022 coming up. And the longer Johnson stays on No10, the more opportunity he has for spectacularly showing us how unfit he is to be there.

Like I keep saying, folk on the Left were comforting themselves earlier this year by saying: Starmer is unelectable, therefore it's my duty to bring things to a head by deserting. That argument is blown out of the water by the current movement of the polls. The question for them now is: Do you want a broadly left of centre Govt? Or are you going to stick with the argument that if you can't have it your way, you might as well have Johnson?

The only way Keith will be PM is if the Tories tank the economy .

All the other stuff going on is a complete side show .

The last government to tank the economy was the Labour Party in 2008 .

Sleaze didn't kill Major's government in the mid 90's but black Wednesday did .

If you are expecting some perfect storm that gets Keith elected as PM I'd suggest you think again Billy .

The Tory party is way more ruthless and cleverer than the opposition and will dump Bunter as they did Thatcher if they need to .

Never mind the Tories failings what have you got that's so special then bro ?

The ramblings of a jilted lover, labour are now to blame for the gfc

To be a jilted lover you'd have to be a lover to begin with .

That is something you'd have difficulty pinning on me personally .

Something I realised early on in life when Kinnock wasn't exactly enthusiastic in supporting the most important strike in UK history .

I knew the cards that were heading my way as a younger man .

Power beats principles .... Hmm .

I do respect people in the Labour Party way way more than any Tory you can come up with .

Glenda Jackson , Dennis Skinner would be very good examples .

Today Rayner says it how it is .

I can get behind that kind of talk .

[SydneyRover]

So are labour responsible for the gfc as you suggest tyke?

[albie]

Syd,

Labour were not to blame for the global financial crash, but they certainly failed to anticipate and take mitigation action early.

The real failing was in the management of the fall-out, where public financial support was not tied in to conditionality. No bankers faced the music, and were jailed for their role.

But the big error was not placing reform conditions on the banking sector.
For example, if they had been required to remove fossil fuels from their portfolio, we would be in better place now in responding to climate change.

BST once again recycles the myth that Tories won the
"2019 Election, against the most shambolic Labour campaign in 36 years".

In actual fact, the lowest Labour vote in modern times was that achieved by Gordon Brown in 2010, far lower than the number of votes for Labour in 2019.

The rationale to revert to historic unpopularity to win votes seems counter intuitive to me.....something different to that, and unlike the Tory offer, might offer a better prospect.

A lead in the polls, even shortly before an election, is a broad brush indicator of high variability. It does not translate directly into seats gained unless the national data translates into local voting patterns. It is possible for one party to have a polling lead, but win fewer seats than another depending upon where those votes express.

The whole discussion about polls is completely irrelevant if CoCo gets the sack before the next GE. Once the Mail start to move against him, the game is up......not just yet, but he will be culled in time for a rebrand.

The importance of Paterson and Cox is how quickly the Tories can disassociate from them....still time to do so!

[SydneyRover]

I'll ask you then Albie, were labour responsible for the gfc?

[albie]

Just answered that, Syd.

Please read before replying!

[tyke1962]

So are labour responsible for the gfc as you suggest tyke?

No they weren't totally responsible but they endorsed every part of it and they own it as much as any Thatcher free market thinking government .

It's pretty abhorrent to be honest .

Principles and power ?

[SydneyRover]

Just answered that, Syd.

Please read before replying!

so labour, not to blame for the gfc were expected to do what no other country in the world did which was to anticipate the gfc and change the uk banking regulations in isolation and disadvantage the uk to such an extent the there would have been a capital exodus?

You may be forgetting the tory answer to the gfc, Austerity, where over 50000 of out country folk died.

[tyke1962]

Just answered that, Syd.

Please read before replying!

so labour, not to blame for the gfc were expected to do what no other country in the world did which was to anticipate the gfc and change the uk banking regulations in isolation and disadvantage the uk to such an extent the there would have been a capital exodus?

You may be forgetting the tory answer to the gfc, Austerity, where over 50000 of out country folk died.

The Global Financial Crash happened after 3 consecutive Labour election wins .

I'd respectively ask you own it and not distance yourself by offering up what happened afterwards .

You lost the 2010 GE on the strength of it .

Own the fecker for God's sake , your watch it happened .

End of .

[SydneyRover]

Just answered that, Syd.

Please read before replying!

so labour, not to blame for the gfc were expected to do what no other country in the world did which was to anticipate the gfc and change the uk banking regulations in isolation and disadvantage the uk to such an extent the there would have been a capital exodus?

You may be forgetting the tory answer to the gfc, Austerity, where over 50000 of out country folk died.

The Global Financial Crash happened after 3 consecutive Labour election wins .

I'd respectively ask you own it and not distance yourself by offering up what happened afterwards .

You lost the 2010 GE on the strength of it .

Own the fecker for God's sake , your watch it happened .

End of .

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, ask yourself why the US where it all started or any other country didn't do anything, you're talking financial dribble. It would have taken massive action in the US and then other countries collectively to forestall or stop the gfc from occurring.

You can live in your bubble of fantasy but you can't change history. Put up some credible sources to support your theory.

The tory reply, 50000+ dead and reduced ability to pay off debt, and they are the money managers, are they not?

Have o look at this then get back to me.

https://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=2007