Privatise the profits, socialise the losses

[SydneyRover]

Bulb goes pop and the public pick up the tab

''Bailout process for collapsed Bulb Energy will rely on public funds, Regulator puts company into special administration to rescue 1.7 million household customers''

yet another goes bung, quick call pepper pig, at least with pepper pig you have a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/22/bulb-energy-which-supplies-17m-customers-collapses-into-administration

[tyke1962]

Bulb goes pop and the public pick up the tab

''Bailout process for collapsed Bulb Energy will rely on public funds, Regulator puts company into special administration to rescue 1.7 million household customers''

yet another goes bung, quick call pepper pig, at least with pepper pig you have a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/22/bulb-energy-which-supplies-17m-customers-collapses-into-administration

Bulb goes pop and the public pick up the tab

''Bailout process for collapsed Bulb Energy will rely on public funds, Regulator puts company into special administration to rescue 1.7 million household customers''

yet another goes bung, quick call pepper pig, at least with pepper pig you have a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/22/bulb-energy-which-supplies-17m-customers-collapses-into-administration

So presumably you'd be happier to see the workforce of bulb - energy out of work and claiming benefits weeks before Xmas ?

[Sprotyrover]

Bulb goes pop and the public pick up the tab

''Bailout process for collapsed Bulb Energy will rely on public funds, Regulator puts company into special administration to rescue 1.7 million household customers''

yet another goes bung, quick call pepper pig, at least with pepper pig you have a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/22/bulb-energy-which-supplies-17m-customers-collapses-into-administration

Bulb goes pop and the public pick up the tab

''Bailout process for collapsed Bulb Energy will rely on public funds, Regulator puts company into special administration to rescue 1.7 million household customers''

yet another goes bung, quick call pepper pig, at least with pepper pig you have a chance.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/22/bulb-energy-which-supplies-17m-customers-collapses-into-administration

So presumably you'd be happier to see the workforce of bulb - energy out of work and claiming benefits weeks before Xmas ?

He is a reluctant Aussie, don't know why he sticks his nose in our business?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's a good strategy.  Having been involved with two large companies that went in to liquidation and were supported in this way it's a very effective if expensive process.  But it does save thousands of jobs.

Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture.

[SydneyRover]

It's a good strategy.  Having been involved with two large companies that went in to liquidation and were supported in this way it's a very effective if expensive process.  But it does save thousands of jobs.

Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture.

Do you wish to quote other times I have not looked at the whole picture pud? what makes you think I haven't considered this aspect pud?, are you suggesting this going to be the norm for any failed venture of privatisation? this sounds suspiciously like socialisation creep? why didn't the government swallow the bitter pill as suggested much earlier in the thread and allow wholesale prices to rise and therefore energy prices to rise thus saving the other 24 companies from going bust?

Because the government hasn't got a clue how to fix this without committing political suicide have they pud?

How would you fix this in the long term pud?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's a good strategy.  Having been involved with two large companies that went in to liquidation and were supported in this way it's a very effective if expensive process.  But it does save thousands of jobs.

Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture.

Do you wish to quote other times I have not looked at the whole picture pud? what makes you think I haven't considered this aspect pud?, are you suggesting this going to be the norm for any failed venture of privatisation? this sounds suspiciously like socialisation creep? why didn't the government swallow the bitter pill as suggested much earlier in the thread and allow wholesale prices to rise and therefore energy prices to rise thus saving the other 24 companies from going bust?

Because the government hasn't got a clue how to fix this without committing political suicide have they pud?

How would you fix this in the long term pud?

I'm not entirely sure how to fix it. It's complex and requires a lot of modelling to create a sustainable long term view.

Is competition healthy? Yes it is good for the consumer but clearly the wholesale price is too much.  That's where the interference is required, there's no solution in controlling the amount consumers pay that just causes too many inflationary issues.

The actual answers likely include changing the supply routes, increasing UK energy independence and ensuring there's a stability mechanism that creates more stability in the supply pricing including forcing the providers to retain set levels of reserved in good times.

[drfchound]

The way things are going we are likely heading for a government run “British Energy” gas and electricity supplier with no competition.
Probably not too far away really.

[SydneyRover]

It's a good strategy.  Having been involved with two large companies that went in to liquidation and were supported in this way it's a very effective if expensive process.  But it does save thousands of jobs.

Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture.

Do you wish to quote other times I have not looked at the whole picture pud? what makes you think I haven't considered this aspect pud?, are you suggesting this going to be the norm for any failed venture of privatisation? this sounds suspiciously like socialisation creep? why didn't the government swallow the bitter pill as suggested much earlier in the thread and allow wholesale prices to rise and therefore energy prices to rise thus saving the other 24 companies from going bust?

Because the government hasn't got a clue how to fix this without committing political suicide have they pud?

How would you fix this in the long term pud?

I'm not entirely sure how to fix it. It's complex and requires a lot of modelling to create a sustainable long term view.

Is competition healthy? Yes it is good for the consumer but clearly the wholesale price is too much.  That's where the interference is required, there's no solution in controlling the amount consumers pay that just causes too many inflationary issues.

The actual answers likely include changing the supply routes, increasing UK energy independence and ensuring there's a stability mechanism that creates more stability in the supply pricing including forcing the providers to retain set levels of reserved in good times.

So basically you don't know then pud? and yet you call me out, is that correct?

It's shame that this has been going on for ..... how long and the government's only answer is to leave 24 or so companies to wind up and bail out this one.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's a good strategy.  Having been involved with two large companies that went in to liquidation and were supported in this way it's a very effective if expensive process.  But it does save thousands of jobs.

Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture.

Do you wish to quote other times I have not looked at the whole picture pud? what makes you think I haven't considered this aspect pud?, are you suggesting this going to be the norm for any failed venture of privatisation? this sounds suspiciously like socialisation creep? why didn't the government swallow the bitter pill as suggested much earlier in the thread and allow wholesale prices to rise and therefore energy prices to rise thus saving the other 24 companies from going bust?

Because the government hasn't got a clue how to fix this without committing political suicide have they pud?

How would you fix this in the long term pud?

I'm not entirely sure how to fix it. It's complex and requires a lot of modelling to create a sustainable long term view.

Is competition healthy? Yes it is good for the consumer but clearly the wholesale price is too much.  That's where the interference is required, there's no solution in controlling the amount consumers pay that just causes too many inflationary issues.

The actual answers likely include changing the supply routes, increasing UK energy independence and ensuring there's a stability mechanism that creates more stability in the supply pricing including forcing the providers to retain set levels of reserved in good times.

So basically you don't know then pud? and yet you call me out, is that correct?

It's shame that this has been going on for ..... how long and the government's only answer is to leave 24 or so companies to wind up and bail out this one.

The point is valid that keeping supply going and people employed is not a bad thing so yes you are wrong.  When I've seen it happen and been involved working with the government and their advisers it's led to thousands in this area keeping their jobs.

Its not my area, how would I know how to fix that part of the economy?

What's your alternative?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The problem is, there wasn't "competition" in any meaningful sense in the gas and electricity markets. Proper competition requires companies being incentivised to find more efficient ways of providing a product or service.

In this market, there were simply chancers trying to get a slice of the action by playing roulette with the wholesale prices. If it worked, they made money. If it didn't the tax payer picked up the tab.

[normal rules]

They should leave gas and electric to the big six. All the smaller companies were bound to fail sooner or later. Very small fish in a very big pond.
A bit like if rovers ever got to the prem.

[wilts rover]

Disaster capitalism writ large. Taxpayers set to loose £millions whilst shareholders & directors will keep all their £millions.

'It's easy to spend other people's money'

[SydneyRover]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

[drfchound]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

“Here WE are”.
Really.

[SydneyRover]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

“Here WE are”.
Really.

who did you say was a WUM hound?

[drfchound]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

“Here WE are”.
Really.

who did you say was a WUM hound?

You, of course.
I was asking a genuine question.
I will ask again, why do you say “we” in this instance.

[SydneyRover]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

“Here WE are”.
Really.

who did you say was a WUM hound?

You, of course.
I was asking a genuine question.
I will ask again, why do you say “we” in this instance.

If you first give me a reasonable explanation as to why you wish to know I may give you an answer hound, simple.

[drfchound]

As I said, you don’t give answers.
Always a condition.

[SydneyRover]

As I said, you don’t give answers.
Always a condition.

I've told you, if you really want to know, just give me a valid reason to tell you and stop being evasive, it's quite easy hound, or was it really a wind-up as I suspect and you are doing your usual, what I say means exactly what I mean it it mean when I'm challenged?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The problem is, there wasn't "competition" in any meaningful sense in the gas and electricity markets. Proper competition requires companies being incentivised to find more efficient ways of providing a product or service.

In this market, there were simply chancers trying to get a slice of the action by playing roulette with the wholesale prices. If it worked, they made money. If it didn't the tax payer picked up the tab.

Better for consumers though, a monopoly helps nobody at all.  Successive governments have done minimal to change it, indeed even the labour 2019 manifesto didn't propose changing it, but nationalising the national grid side.

Just look how little profit has been made by these companies, the narrative that these smaller companies like Bulb have creamed huge profits appears not to be true.  Unless we can address the wholesale pricing side how is it possible that anything but passing the cost on to the consumer (business or domestic) can solve the issue?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

So I'll ask again, what is your answer?  You haven't answered my question.

As for the privatisation, I was still literally in nappies when it happened, it's not a new thing.

What do you think happens if it all becomes nationalised in the long term?

[SydneyRover]

And this bit pud? ''Again Sydney not looking at the whole bigger picture''

I have considered the big picture and this problem has been going on for how long, what is the governments answer?

You have to ask why services were privatised in the first place, all those people that bst talked about that wanted less government and less taxes voted for thatcher and created this, where are they now?

Natural monopolies being privatised never made any sense and here we are paying the full price. If johnson had said his government was going to privatise any company that is 'vital' I wonder how many on his own side would still want him.

If the gas price keeps rising and the wholesale price is not allowed to rise there will be one person left with a screen and a phone.

The government's answer, wait till summer.

So I'll ask again, what is your answer?  You haven't answered my question.

As for the privatisation, I was still literally in nappies when it happened, it's not a new thing.

What do you think happens if it all becomes nationalised in the long term?

Either nationalise it as all natural monopolies should be, and allow a free market for the gas price with subsidies those that cannot afford it with a genuine means tests up to a ceiling where those above a certain income do not get rebates/allowances which would be no higher than about £80k.

[SydneyRover]

One can see the problems here pud in the graph

''Bulb Energy’s debt climbed as customer numbers rose'' from the outset the company must have known that unless something radical happened to gas prices it wasn't going to survive.

With 24 other energy suppliers going the same way where is the government's long term plan and strategy? this slow motion train wreck has building speed for at least 4 years.

I don't have government resources for modelling and information, they are they ones supposed to be close to business and have their collective fingers on the pulse? except for johnson the 'child that shat himself' with the memorable ''f**k business'' well he certainly got that bit right, no?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/24/uk-supplier-bulb-energy-to-run-under-special-administration-through-winter

[phil old leake]

I’ve maybe missed something obvious

Why have bulb been treated in a different way to the other companies that have been allowed to go bust

[SydneyRover]

Cos they're a big one.

[SydneyRover]

24 energy suppliers fold and ..................... ta da .................

''The energy regulator has promised to enact tougher stress tests for energy suppliers to prove they have the financial strength to weather a surge in energy market prices – with consequences for suppliers which fail.

Ofgem’s chief executive, Jonathan Brearley, said regulation would need to “go much further” to assess whether suppliers are able to survive unpredictable energy market shocks, after the collapse of more than 20 suppliers in the last 12 weeks''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/30/ofgem-promises-tougher-stress-tests-for-energy-suppliers