Are we fighting for our club or owners

[Donny Exile in York]

As football as a business is unsustainable due to so much artificial stimulus, I think it is the correct decision to try and find other revenue streams to fund the football. The team was in a false position under Moore before Christmas, which made the collapse after the Whiteman sale look all the more catastrophic. The board appointed Wellens which most people were happy with at the time, we were told it was a rebuild, we all knew it was going to be a tough, probably not this tough.
I’m not convinced by Wellens but what he’s been dealt has been awful, poor preparation and injuries. I can see signs of very slow improvement.
It’s easy to criticise, say the kit is crap etc, I don’t like the kit, I’m sure though it was designed in good faith, I’m sure every decision that is made is made in good faith, obviously there’s always an opportunity cost and sometimes you make the wrong decision.
I don’t honestly know what people expect from the owners, we are doing terribly but sometimes that happens you lose irreplaceable players and make bad calls on their replacements. Everything happens in cycles, 7 years of feast 7 years of famine, the graph doesn’t forever go in a straight diagonal upwards line. Have a bit of patience, stop being so fickle, do not ask what your club can do for you, ask what you can do for your club!

I suggest you reign in the judgements then yourself, who's been fickle, as a season ticket holder, lottery goer etc i am doing my bit! Given our position in the table, i just take a different view to Osterich's sticking their head in the sand or yviewing a graph and going,... ohhh it went up for 7 years, now its time for the slide... it's all Ok we can see pretty patterns in the graphs! There should be scrutiny of the workings of the club given the fall from grace over the past 11 months or so.

I’ve no doubt you’re a loyal supporter, we’ve probably got 2/3000 like you, Ipswich have got 10,000, Sunderland 20,000.
So what exactly should the club do to get out of this predicament? Don’t you think they are trying? Was Wellens the wrong choice? Should they sack him now? Should they put more money in and subsidise us even more? Would you hold the board directly responsible for the kit being crap? Do you know any parties who want to take over?

Try answering some of Rugby Rovers questions. We've covered the rest previously probably 6 or 8 league games ago... not to mention after the first five league games or last April /May when I was hounded for saying we needed investment otherwise this season would be a follow on from the end of the last or even worse.., . Do you want to enlighten me and everyone to what you think should be done or we just continue the downward spiral?

It seems some people accept there was need for a rebuild but are not willing to accept the risk and consequences that come with it.

Sometimes in life you have to go backwards before going forwards again.. When the slide of results came during and after Moore's departure, I fully accepted that we needed a full rebuild and I fully accepted that it would likely take more than one transfer window for any incoming manager to get things moving forward again.

Of course, we would want to avoid relegation but we can't pick and choose these things, neither the board, nor the manager could have foreseen such a prolonged run of injuries however, this season still has a long way to go.

There is no need to panic! What needs to be done is to continue to support our club whatever way you can and be patient. Allow the club and the management team to do what is necessary to execute their plan for January.

Your assuming a rebuild will be successful, or not be over a much longer 5 or 10 year cycle, was our rebuild from the early 80s promotions or late 80s relegation done in a year, or indeed several incarnations of owners and managers.... a rebuild does require investment, let's hope we get some. A rebuild can mean lots of things, a quicker rebuild would be for the wealthy individual on the Board, probably in the top 50 wealthy individuals in the Yorkshire region (just an intentionally very conservative estimate i hasten to add) to say Ok sustainability and self funding is great and aspirational but following a once in a century pandemic and unprecedented period of no crowds or income from gate receipts, maybe a kick start is needed to stop free falling and unravelling all the good work done over many years, focusing on some investment on the pitch to 'sustain' our position in the league we are in. Just a thought. Maybe the rebuild would be less painful and quicker as a result, and less lost revenue from reduced crowds etc. as a consequence of elongated poor results.   

[DonnyBazR0ver]

As football as a business is unsustainable due to so much artificial stimulus, I think it is the correct decision to try and find other revenue streams to fund the football. The team was in a false position under Moore before Christmas, which made the collapse after the Whiteman sale look all the more catastrophic. The board appointed Wellens which most people were happy with at the time, we were told it was a rebuild, we all knew it was going to be a tough, probably not this tough.
I’m not convinced by Wellens but what he’s been dealt has been awful, poor preparation and injuries. I can see signs of very slow improvement.
It’s easy to criticise, say the kit is crap etc, I don’t like the kit, I’m sure though it was designed in good faith, I’m sure every decision that is made is made in good faith, obviously there’s always an opportunity cost and sometimes you make the wrong decision.
I don’t honestly know what people expect from the owners, we are doing terribly but sometimes that happens you lose irreplaceable players and make bad calls on their replacements. Everything happens in cycles, 7 years of feast 7 years of famine, the graph doesn’t forever go in a straight diagonal upwards line. Have a bit of patience, stop being so fickle, do not ask what your club can do for you, ask what you can do for your club!

I suggest you reign in the judgements then yourself, who's been fickle, as a season ticket holder, lottery goer etc i am doing my bit! Given our position in the table, i just take a different view to Osterich's sticking their head in the sand or yviewing a graph and going,... ohhh it went up for 7 years, now its time for the slide... it's all Ok we can see pretty patterns in the graphs! There should be scrutiny of the workings of the club given the fall from grace over the past 11 months or so.

I’ve no doubt you’re a loyal supporter, we’ve probably got 2/3000 like you, Ipswich have got 10,000, Sunderland 20,000.
So what exactly should the club do to get out of this predicament? Don’t you think they are trying? Was Wellens the wrong choice? Should they sack him now? Should they put more money in and subsidise us even more? Would you hold the board directly responsible for the kit being crap? Do you know any parties who want to take over?

Try answering some of Rugby Rovers questions. We've covered the rest previously probably 6 or 8 league games ago... not to mention after the first five league games or last April /May when I was hounded for saying we needed investment otherwise this season would be a follow on from the end of the last or even worse.., . Do you want to enlighten me and everyone to what you think should be done or we just continue the downward spiral?

It seems some people accept there was need for a rebuild but are not willing to accept the risk and consequences that come with it.

Sometimes in life you have to go backwards before going forwards again.. When the slide of results came during and after Moore's departure, I fully accepted that we needed a full rebuild and I fully accepted that it would likely take more than one transfer window for any incoming manager to get things moving forward again.

Of course, we would want to avoid relegation but we can't pick and choose these things, neither the board, nor the manager could have foreseen such a prolonged run of injuries however, this season still has a long way to go.

There is no need to panic! What needs to be done is to continue to support our club whatever way you can and be patient. Allow the club and the management team to do what is necessary to execute their plan for January.

Your assuming a rebuild will be successful, or not be over a much longer 5 or 10 year cycle, was our rebuild from the early 80s promotions or late 80s relegation done in a year, or indeed several incarnations of owners and managers.... a rebuild does require investment, let's hope we get some. A rebuild can mean lots of things, a quicker rebuild would be for the wealthy individual on the Board, probably in the top 50 wealthy individuals in the Yorkshire region (just an intentionally very conservative estimate i hasten to add) to say Ok sustainability and self funding is great and aspirational but following a once in a century pandemic and unprecedented period of no crowds or income from gate receipts, maybe a kick start is needed to stop free falling and unravelling all the good work done over many years, focusing on some investment on the pitch to 'sustain' our position in the league we are in. Just a thought. Maybe the rebuild would be less painful and quicker as a result, and less lost revenue from reduced crowds etc. as a consequence of elongated poor results.   

Not assuming anything. As long as it takes within reason however for some, immediately is not soon enough despite warnings to the contrary. 

None of us know what can or what will be done in January and no matter how loud people shout, nothing will change that.

[since-1969]

The owners are on safe journey to establish a self sustaining club that is build around many streams of income and not reliant on the owners making up the short fall . It sounds idealistic and sound business practice . BUT it comes at a price . This price is now paid by the fans by tapering their expectations of success year on year . With loan players to fill in the squads deficiencies often  players who haven’t played at Efl level . Wages being the main burden on a clubs income is capped by the turnover and spending over all is spread over several transfer windows to maximise its chances of signing available out of contract  players . Managers are not expected to exceed the budget or risk players being loaned out to other small clubs to keep within its budget . This model is not designed for success on the pitch but to maintain a balance sheet without the owners required to invest . DRFC are drifting slowly into obscurity with its fan base dwindling year on year. Imo 145 years of the clubs history is being ring fenced and bound up in a metaphoric chastity belt to prevent it ever getting ideas beyond its capabilities to grow . Baldwin and co are a fraud and should leave if ever the club is to get its  self respect back to the fans who have seen this demise years before and the pain of the exile out of the League before . Let the supporters have a say now or watch US all walk away !! This my view only !

If I spot the facts do I win £5?

Maybe you should point out the inaccuracies instead?

Ok let’s assume that the OP is pretty accurate with this viewpoint, and I do tend to agree with most of it…
So if the OP is correct and he believes, as do many, that this is the direction that DRFC are heading for the reasons stated……….why the hell bitch about it every day?

If you are told there’s a storm brewing, and you can clearly see it on the horizon, as can all your neighbours…..why continually knock on doors offering the opinion that there’s a storm brewing when it’s bloody obvious?

Bitching about this is my way of trying to get to the bottom of why I feel so fed up of what has happened since Grant McCann brought so close a promotion and the subsequent reversal of everything ever since . We had like many clubs some bad luck ,like a points tally left us out of the playoffs with games still to play and the being abandoned by Darren Moore and to cap it , putting another promotion push in the hands of Butler who just didn’t know how to get us over line . If this wasn't enough the clubs decision to pretend to be supporting the club when it’s was clearly obvious this isn’t t the case by its drastic budget cut and sales of key players over months prior to the end of the previous seasons but without reinvesting to bring in better prospects only loans and dodgy has beens . Ritchie Wellens a hero in all minds but with no justifiable track record was given the job  , only to keep the supporters happy but even he had his hands tide behind him in the transfer market . Results do not lie .. and this season is a accumulation of many past decisions about the curbing of funds into club . It has been said by Wellens himself that it will take a few transfer windows before the club can show progress ( yet what about the first window just gone ?) It makes me believe that though relegation isn’t  planned for , but is excepted as a possible consequence due to these choices by the board , one of which is NOT to breach its funding cap . I want us to show progress yet we all see that these players just to inexperienced but a year in L1 would possibly be ready in L2 . Our Home game form isn’t  going to save our season . I stand by what I believe that Ritchie Wellens is learning on the job and HIS lack of managerial knowledge is starting to show how much out of his depth he really is . Imo

[roversdude]

No it’s an accumulation of being screwed over by 2 managers. One particularly talking of a project but decimating the team to bring in a squad of gods own chosen sons on loan. Having been backed to the hilt by the board he promptly relocated to Sheffield. With hindsight appointing Butler was a mistake, but how often has continuity proven effective through the leagues. Whoever came in had a mammoth task. We have a decent squad if it weren’t for the injuries and have started playing decent football. IMO of course

[tyke1962]

It's not the first time I've read on this forum about wanting to become a self sufficient club and I do smile to myself when I've read those threads .

My club is a self sufficient club given the owners have never invested one single penny in to the club other than a couple of instalments when they purchased it .

When self sufficiency rides in to your club then there are a number of things to consider .

Firstly balancing the books comes before success on the field .

So even if you are sat in a challenging position in the league or indeed just enjoyed a promotion then expect your better players sold when the offers come in .

You won't become self sufficient outside of trading players with the revenue streams you create , it's impossible for ourselves even with respect higher gates and ST takeup plus greater Sky tv revenue .

Again with respect it would be almost impossible for Rovers to sustain championship football as a self sufficient club and massively difficult to challenge consistently at the top end of league one .

Player trading whilst the only way to self sufficiency also carries a 60% fail rate and those are top end stats .

Competition for unearthed gems is massively competitive , almost everyone has a data led angle too these days .

Recruiting players outside of the UK and in the European Union to cast your net further is now massively difficult unless you are purchasing players from the top flight and have international honours to under 21 level as a minimum .

I would respectively suggest that if your owners are pumping £2m in every season then you want to thank your lucky stars .

Our complained on the record about our fifth placed finish last season was a bit of a failure , I kid you not .

A failure because no real offers came in for our better players ( who they are right now is anybody's guess mind ) .

Money trumps ambition on the field , trust me it will .

Be careful what you wish for and I say that without wanting the extreme Derby and Reading type strategy either .

Football is football , fans want success over a balance sheet .

A self sufficiency model and no success on the field just won't work .

The game needs to come towards clubs such as Rovers and Barnsley rather than looking at self sufficiency .

The latest review that was announced yesterday may go some way to level up the playing field .

[since-1969]

When you keep dropping down the leagues you hopefully get to a point where income and expenditure balance out .

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It's not the first time I've read on this forum about wanting to become a self sufficient club and I do smile to myself when I've read those threads .

My club is a self sufficient club given the owners have never invested one single penny in to the club other than a couple of instalments when they purchased it .

When self sufficiency rides in to your club then there are a number of things to consider .

Firstly balancing the books comes before success on the field .

So even if you are sat in a challenging position in the league or indeed just enjoyed a promotion then expect your better players sold when the offers come in .

You won't become self sufficient outside of trading players with the revenue streams you create , it's impossible for ourselves even with respect higher gates and ST takeup plus greater Sky tv revenue .

Again with respect it would be almost impossible for Rovers to sustain championship football as a self sufficient club and massively difficult to challenge consistently at the top end of league one .

Player trading whilst the only way to self sufficiency also carries a 60% fail rate and those are top end stats .

Competition for unearthed gems is massively competitive , almost everyone has a data led angle too these days .

Recruiting players outside of the UK and in the European Union to cast your net further is now massively difficult unless you are purchasing players from the top flight and have international honours to under 21 level as a minimum .

I would respectively suggest that if your owners are pumping £2m in every season then you want to thank your lucky stars .

Our complained on the record about our fifth placed finish last season was a bit of a failure , I kid you not .

A failure because no real offers came in for our better players ( who they are right now is anybody's guess mind ) .

Money trumps ambition on the field , trust me it will .

Be careful what you wish for and I say that without wanting the extreme Derby and Reading type strategy either .

Football is football , fans want success over a balance sheet .

A self sufficiency model and no success on the field just won't work .

The game needs to come towards clubs such as Rovers and Barnsley rather than looking at self sufficiency .

The latest review that was announced yesterday may go some way to level up the playing field .

The aim was to become self sufficient should things go tits up with the owners however, the owners continue to run the club on a sustainable basis, choosing to continue to support the club with additional funding year on year.

There's a difference between self sufficiency and self sustainability. We incurr losses but we do not rely on external funding and subsequent debt.

Broadly agree with your points though.

[Alan Southstand]

Tyke, with respect, would you mind putting in a call to our Board, because they obviously still think sustainability is working!

Your post is a breath of fresh air. Thanks.

[roversdude]

Yet still put their hands in their own pockets thankfully

[Sammy Chung was King]

We have gone from aiming for the stars to aiming just to tread water-aim low end up even lower.
I know we can’t afford to go for big signing but it would be nice to be in the game now and again, when good players move clubs. Part of rebuilding has to be improving. Let’s hope this is as bad as it gets.

[tyke1962]

Tyke, with respect, would you mind putting in a call to our Board, because they obviously still think sustainability is working!

Your post is a breath of fresh air. Thanks.

Alan I'm sure none of us want to see our clubs run like Reading , Derby County and Wednesday and I certainly don't at Barnsley even though our owners have a combined wealth of £9bn .

The facts are that football is a risk and reward industry and there's no escaping that .

Yes there are the abject failures as I've mentioned but there are success stories too such as AFC Bournemouth and Brentford , two clubs who we both played regularly in the old fourth division back in the day .

I'll say something else too Alan people who get involved in football clubs do so with their eyes wide open and understand the pitfalls .

Self sufficiency has it's place don't get me wrong but in my opinion and with respect it's fits Exeter City , Forest Green etc and will work between league two and a fleeting season or two in league one .

If you want to challenge higher over a sustained period then unfortunately it won't work .

We are testament to that .

[Sprotyrover]

I have been supporting Rovers since 1973' I am used to disappointment and underachieving !

[tyke1962]

I have been supporting Rovers since 1973' I am used to disappointment and underachieving !

Extreme fine lines in football , the most important goal ever scored by a Man Utd player in the relatively modern era was the one scored by Mark Robins in that third round cup tie against Forest in 1990 .

Without that Fergie was a gonner and I don't care what anyone says at Man Utd he was out had they lost that cup tie .

Who saw Leicester City winning the PL ?

A one time season when everything just fell in to place .

A bit like ourselves in 97 and last season .

Rovers will have the good times again , will knock a PL team out of the FA cup and possibly get promoted to the championship .

Season's such as we are both having are tough but it's never forever .

[BVB]

“ Season's such as we are both having are tough but it's never forever .”

Exactly it.

[Colin C No.3]

The owners are on safe journey to establish a self sustaining club that is build around many streams of income and not reliant on the owners making up the short fall . It sounds idealistic and sound business practice . BUT it comes at a price . This price is now paid by the fans by tapering their expectations of success year on year . With loan players to fill in the squads deficiencies often  players who haven’t played at Efl level . Wages being the main burden on a clubs income is capped by the turnover and spending over all is spread over several transfer windows to maximise its chances of signing available out of contract  players . Managers are not expected to exceed the budget or risk players being loaned out to other small clubs to keep within its budget . This model is not designed for success on the pitch but to maintain a balance sheet without the owners required to invest . DRFC are drifting slowly into obscurity with its fan base dwindling year on year. Imo 145 years of the clubs history is being ring fenced and bound up in a metaphoric chastity belt to prevent it ever getting ideas beyond its capabilities to grow . Baldwin and co are a fraud and should leave if ever the club is to get its  self respect back to the fans who have seen this demise years before and the pain of the exile out of the League before . Let the supporters have a say now or watch US all walk away !! This my view only !

Yaawnn.

Sorry, did you say something I shouldn’t have missed?

[ColinDouglasHandshake]

Tyke, with respect, would you mind putting in a call to our Board, because they obviously still think sustainability is working!

Your post is a breath of fresh air. Thanks.

Alan I'm sure none of us want to see our clubs run like Reading , Derby County and Wednesday and I certainly don't at Barnsley even though our owners have a combined wealth of £9bn .

The facts are that football is a risk and reward industry and there's no escaping that .

Yes there are the abject failures as I've mentioned but there are success stories too such as AFC Bournemouth and Brentford , two clubs who we both played regularly in the old fourth division back in the day .

I'll say something else too Alan people who get involved in football clubs do so with their eyes wide open and understand the pitfalls .

Self sufficiency has it's place don't get me wrong but in my opinion and with respect it's fits Exeter City , Forest Green etc and will work between league two and a fleeting season or two in league one .

If you want to challenge higher over a sustained period then unfortunately it won't work .

We are testament to that .

Spot on. I accept this though.

[bpoolrover]

I agree with the club being run sustainable but they have tried to do it when we needed to sign 10 players it should have been done when we had a team that was fit to start the season