The Sad State Of Politics

[tyke1962]

Meanwhile, the Blair Govt that Tyke decries removed more kids from poverty than any Govt in history. It was able to do that because it won elections.

You go and man the barricades Tyke. Take it to the streets. You won't make a scratch on the surface of the problems you rightly identify, while ever a right wing Govt is in charge.

Aye that's right Billy I ain't going to argue with that he did .

The flaw was it was mainly to put millions on benefit dependency either with low paid work or no work at all .

[River Don]

Radical options are only going to be acceptable in desperate times. Like in the aftermath of a global war.

These maybe increasingly difficult times but they are not yet desperate times.

[SydneyRover]

Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.

It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .

This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .

The NHS and a welfare programme .

My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .

The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .

She flipped to the Liberals 

I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .

My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .

I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .

I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .

Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .

But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?

[tyke1962]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

[tyke1962]

Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.

It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .

This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .

The NHS and a welfare programme .

My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .

The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .

She flipped to the Liberals 

I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .

My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .

I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .

I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .

Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .

But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?

I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .

If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .

[drfchound]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.

[tyke1962]

Radical options are only going to be acceptable in desperate times. Like in the aftermath of a global war.

These maybe increasingly difficult times but they are not yet desperate times.

Presumably relying on a foodbank to feed yourself isn't a desperate situation then .

[SydneyRover]

Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.

It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .

This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .

The NHS and a welfare programme .

My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .

The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .

She flipped to the Liberals 

I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .

My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .

I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .

I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .

Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .

But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?

I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .

If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .

So when you said your 'work' was mainly with the union and not much in politics what did that mean? you don't even vote for or support the main opposition to this wretched government.

[tyke1962]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.

Or have a second referendum in the hope you'll get the result you want Hound .

[scawsby steve]

Meanwhile, the Blair Govt that Tyke decries removed more kids from poverty than any Govt in history. It was able to do that because it won elections.

You go and man the barricades Tyke. Take it to the streets. You won't make a scratch on the surface of the problems you rightly identify, while ever a right wing Govt is in charge.

Hold on a minute, didn't you say you left the Labour Party because of Blair?

[drfchound]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.

Or have a second referendum in the hope you'll get the result you want Hound .

Yep, that would be something that I can imagine would be deemed acceptable to the losers.

[tyke1962]

Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.

It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .

This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .

The NHS and a welfare programme .

My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .

The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .

She flipped to the Liberals 

I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .

My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .

I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .

I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .

Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .

But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?

I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .

If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .

So when you said your 'work' was mainly with the union and not much in politics what did that mean? you don't even vote for or support the main opposition to this wretched government.

But you aren't the main opposition to this government .

Not to me you aren't .

That's my entire point .

How could you really be the opposition when you have actually nothing to say on vision and policy .

What kind of country you want and how you are going to achieve it ?

Starmer is about 30% credible and that's in the Guardian reading the comments section which I do regularly .

I rarely read the actual articles because they are all the same , Tories this , Tories that .

I know , I've known since I was a kid what the Tories are .

The question isn't what the Tories are the question is what are Labour going to do ?

Not be the Tories isn't good enough and never was .

Even Blair knew that .

[SydneyRover]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

[SydneyRover]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

Stash?  I don't have a stash.  I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.

If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.

[SydneyRover]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

Stash?  I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.

If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.

I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?

[tyke1962]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

But what's your logical point Sydney ?

If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .

This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .

You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .

The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .

My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .

Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .

The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .

You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .

You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .

You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .

Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

Stash?  I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.

If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.

I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?

I'd incrementally adjust so that pensions were liable to national insurance for a start bringing it in over time.  I'd adjust dividends so that they were liable to a small % tax charge tapered and increasing proportionately.  I'd levy larger businesses with a small % charge per employee dependent on salary bracket, starting at 1% and tapering up to 5% dependent on the income bracket (essentially higher employer national insurance).

But then I'd drastically rewrite the whole tax system anyway as I believe a lot of it is fundamentally flawed.

[SydneyRover]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

But what's your logical point Sydney ?

If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .

This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .

You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .

The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .

My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .

Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .

The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .

You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .

You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .

You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .

Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?

I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.

Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.

[tyke1962]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

Stash?  I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.

If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.

I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?

Your looking at this the wrong way Sydney , apparently if you are successful and there's nowt wrong with that mind you exempt yourself from the rest of society .

The more the individual success the less the rest of society matters .

The thing is society wouldn't work without the less skilled , somebody has to do the other jobs .

There is no exempt card .

[SydneyRover]

At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.

Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...

They ain't going to be going for radical options.

New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.

Exactly this.  How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.

The thing that voters will decide on is the policies.  Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.

Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.

That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?

But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.

Stash?  I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.

If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.

I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?

I'd incrementally adjust so that pensions were liable to national insurance for a start bringing it in over time.  I'd adjust dividends so that they were liable to a small % tax charge tapered and increasing proportionately.  I'd levy larger businesses with a small % charge per employee dependent on salary bracket, starting at 1% and tapering up to 5% dependent on the income bracket (essentially higher employer national insurance).

But then I'd drastically rewrite the whole tax system anyway as I believe a lot of it is fundamentally flawed.

And is any of this in the tory manifesto pud?


And just a reminder ..................

''Rishi Sunak offers spending now – and signals tax cuts later''

will tories as a party ever vote to pay more tax to improve society?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/27/rishi-sunak-spending-tax-cuts-budget

[tyke1962]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

But what's your logical point Sydney ?

If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .

This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .

You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .

The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .

My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .

Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .

The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .

You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .

You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .

You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .

Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?

I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.

Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.

Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .

It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .

Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .

But it isn't is it .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

The point being that it was nothing to do with a groundswell of popular support for Corbynism and against more centre-Left approaches. The irony is that many of those entryists were precisely the sort of middle class types that you despise.

[SydneyRover]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

But what's your logical point Sydney ?

If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .

This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .

You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .

The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .

My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .

Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .

The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .

You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .

You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .

You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .

Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?

I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.

Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.

Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .

It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .

Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .

But it isn't is it .

You must have a whole barnful of straw men tyke, you trot several out every time you post, ignore what you just wrote whatever it is and answer the question.

[tyke1962]

Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.

God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .

The point being that it was nothing to do with a groundswell of popular support for Corbynism and against more centre-Left approaches. The irony is that many of those entryists were precisely the sort of middle class types that you despise.

Thats actually perfectly true , people who came from a wide range of backgrounds wanted change .

You'd have thought an educated man would have recognised that and become the credible face of it wouldn't you ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes Tyke. People. About 0.3% of the population. They were the ones who out Corbyn in post.

I'm not questioning the constitutional correctness of that. I'm pointing out that it's daft to interpret that as a popular groundswell of desire to drag Labour to the Left.

[tyke1962]

You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.

But what's your logical point Sydney ?

If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .

This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .

You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .

The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .

My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .

Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .

The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .

You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .

You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .

You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .

Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?

I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.

Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.

Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .

It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .

Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .

But it isn't is it .

You must have a whole barnful of straw men tyke, you trot several out every time you post, ignore what you just wrote whatever it is and answer the question.

There isn't so much as a straw dolly Sydney in my house .

Just facts , if you want to say the Labour Party have a position on the Energy companies , didn't vote for Johnson's brexit deal and will vote against Plan B or abstain then you can always provide the evidence to back that up .

I'll await the evidence , in your own time of course .

[tyke1962]

Yes Tyke. People. About 0.3% of the population. They were the ones who out Corbyn in post.

I'm not questioning the constitutional correctness of that. I'm pointing out that it's daft to interpret that as a popular groundswell of desire to drag Labour to the Left.

Billy I'm intrigued .

So we've a position that cuts through class division .

We've a position that grows the Party membership so much it becomes the biggest in Europe .

We've a position where huge funding is coming in at extraordinary levels .

We've a position where the Party has an identity and people know what it stands for .

So why on earth would you not build on that energy and instead purge it .

Purge it to the point it doesn't have a vision , any policies and is so struggling for finance it's making people redundant .

All for the sake of taking the party to a position where they've previously lost twice .

Ain't the centre ground Utopia ??

[SydneyRover]

Two things to remember, the results of the 2019 election, it tends to focus the mind, the other is Einstein's definition of insanity.